RE: doc-pullquote

Looks good to me. Thanks

Tzviya Siegman
Information Standards Lead
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

From: Matt Garrish [mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com]
Sent: Wednesday, November 02, 2016 1:46 PM
To: 'Rich Schwerdtfeger'
Cc: 'DPUB-ARIA'; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; 'Alexander Surkov'; 'Bogdan Brinza'; 'Joanmarie Diggs'; 'Rich Schwerdtfeger'; jcraig@apple.com
Subject: RE: doc-pullquote

Any objections then to adding the following paragraph and examples to replace the aria-hidden default?

Unlike a passage quoted from another source, a pullquote is a direct repetition of text in the current document. As a result, authors must ensure that the presentational occurrence is hidden from users of assistive technologies (e.g., using the aria-hidden<http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#aria-hidden> attribute).
The following example shows the identification of a pullquote that will be presented elsewhere (e.g., via a script). In this case, the pullquote is not hidden as the marked text is not presentational.
EXAMPLE 38
<p>… I may die, but first you, my tyrant and tormentor, shall curse the sun that gazes on your misery.
   <span id="pq01" role="doc-pullquote">Beware, for I am fearless and therefore powerful.</span>
   I will watch with the wiliness of a snake, that I may sting with its venom. … </p>
The next example shows a pullquote that duplicates the text. This quote is hidden because it is for presentational purposes only.
EXAMPLE 39
<p>… Better habits pave the way to growth, and growth leads to greater happiness.</p>
<aside role="doc-pullquote" aria-hidden="true">
   Better habits pave the way to growth, and growth leads to greater happiness.
</aside>


Matt

From: Rich Schwerdtfeger [mailto:richschwer@gmail.com]
Sent: November 2, 2016 10:43 AM
To: Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com<mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com>>
Cc: DPUB-ARIA <public-dpub-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>>; Tzviya Siegman <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>; Alexander Surkov <asurkov@mozilla.com<mailto:asurkov@mozilla.com>>; Bogdan Brinza <bbrinza@microsoft.com<mailto:bbrinza@microsoft.com>>; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com<mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>; Rich Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com<mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>>; jcraig@apple.com<mailto:jcraig@apple.com>
Subject: Re: doc-pullquote

Matt,

My opinion: Providing author guidance would be better. If you already have a superclass of none then it should not be mapped. It is clear it provides not semantic value.

Rich


Rich Schwerdtfeger



On Nov 1, 2016, at 8:15 PM, Matt Garrish <matt.garrish@gmail.com<mailto:matt.garrish@gmail.com>> wrote:

Sorry for the delay, but competing priorities are spreading me thin. We have a superclass role of "none" already. Should we just remove the default aria-hidden statement and provide guidance to authors who duplicate the pullquote to hide the repeated instance to wrap this up? (e.g., add an example with @aria-hidden and see if there are appropriate places to highlight in epub documentation?)

I get the feeling we will cause authoring problems by assuming a certain kind of pullquote markup, even if it's the common case today.

Matt

From: jcraig@apple.com<mailto:jcraig@apple.com> [mailto:jcraig@apple.com]
Sent: October 27, 2016 10:34 PM
To: DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>) <public-dpub-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>>
Cc: Tzviya Siegman <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>; Alexander Surkov <asurkov@mozilla.com<mailto:asurkov@mozilla.com>>; Bogdan Brinza <bbrinza@microsoft.com<mailto:bbrinza@microsoft.com>>; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com<mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>; Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com<mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>; Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com<mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>>
Subject: Re: doc-pullquote

I almost feel like this should be a CSS layout feature… like a pseudo-element that duplicates its render parent's content. A way to render the same content both in context, and out of context, but without duplicating it in the DOM. Something like:

•       <blockquote cite="http://www.englishcentral.com/videodetails/22846">
•       We design our products so they surprise and delight everyone who uses them.
•
•       And we never, never ever analyze the return on investment.
•
•       We do it because it is just and right.
•
•       And <span class="pullquote">that is what respect for human dignity requires</span>...
•
•       ...and it is a part of Apple that I am especially proud of.</blockqoute>

.pullquote::duplicate {
    content: parent-contents;
    float: left;
    font-size: 300%;
    display: block;
    padding: 1em 2em;
    width: 20em;
}



On Oct 27, 2016, at 12:29 PM, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com<mailto:schwer@us.ibm.com>> wrote:

If that is the case, then why not map them to role="none" unless they are made focusable and then you map them to the native host language semantics. A role of none will not hide the content within the container having doc-pullquote unless they are structural elements associated with the

Or, do you really want to hide the element and all the content of a pull quote? Note: if you do this then you have to deal with an author putting tabindex on it and child content.


Rich Schwerdtfeger


----- Original message -----
From: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>>
To: "jcraig@apple.com<mailto:jcraig@apple.com>" <jcraig@apple.com<mailto:jcraig@apple.com>>, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com<mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>
Cc: Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com<mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>, Alexander Surkov <asurkov@mozilla.com<mailto:asurkov@mozilla.com>>, Bogdan Brinza <bbrinza@microsoft.com<mailto:bbrinza@microsoft.com>>, "DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>)" <public-dpub-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: doc-pullquote
Date: Thu, Oct 27, 2016 12:18 PM

The reason we have suggested that pullquotes be hidden in some way is that they duplicate content.

James, based on discussions with users of AT, we concluded that most will find pullquotes irritating and/or confusing because they duplicate existing content. So, they might provide emphasis, but we'd like the default for AT to be not displayed. How can we make that work?

Tzviya Siegman
Information Standards Lead
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com<mailto:tsiegman@wiley.com>

-----Original Message-----
From: jcraig@apple.com<mailto:jcraig@apple.com> [mailto:jcraig@apple.com]
Sent: Thursday, October 27, 2016 12:57 PM
To: Joanmarie Diggs
Cc: Rich Schwerdtfeger; Alexander Surkov; Bogdan Brinza; Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken; DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-dpub-aria@w3.org>)
Subject: Re: doc-pullquote

Sometimes they aren't purely decorative. At a minimum, they provide emphasis. Arguably, they could be navigable, too. Similar to headings or images, but probably not recommended to subclass landmarks.

> On Oct 27, 2016, at 9:17 AM, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com<mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>> wrote:
>
> But my understanding is that pullquotes are purely decorative and ATs
> shouldn't double present them. Native host language semantics won't
> necessarily buy us that, right?
>
> --joanie
>
> On 10/27/2016 12:05 PM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>> Not mapped only means that the element is not mapped. Hidden should
>> apply to the element and its subtree unless a descendant is
>> overridden by the element. So, I think a better solution would be to
>> not to expose the role at all and allow it to default to the native
>> host language semantics. In this case it does not matter whether it has focus or not.
>>
>> In fact, I think it would be best to state that in the mapping spec.
>> that defines what it means to not be mapped. We should say that it
>> defaults to the native host language semantics and the ARIA role is
>> not exposed.
>>
>> Would this not be a better approach?
>>
>>
>>
>> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>> On Oct 27, 2016, at 9:24 AM, Alexander Surkov <asurkov@mozilla.com
<mailto:asurkov@mozilla.com%0b>>>> <mailto:asurkov@mozilla.com>> wrote:
>>>
>>> Thinking more, aria-hidden='true' might be not that bad, even with
>>> its ambiguity of the usage and implementations in the browsers. If
>>> you say 'not mapped', then I think you should say if this is applied
>>> to elements from its subtree, also you may need to clarify the edge
>>> cases, for example, what happens, if the focus goes into 'pullquote'
>>> element.
>>>
>>> Having said I would probably prefer if that was the author's
>>> responsibility to hide the element from AT, either by moving it
>>> offscreen or putting aria-hidden='true' on it.
>>>
>>> Also I don't quire understand why would we need to have 'pullquote'
>>> role in the first place. If pullquote doesn't have semantics, then
>>> it doesn't seem worthwhile to have ARIA role for it.
>>>
>>> Thanks.
>>> Alexander.
>>>
>>> On Thu, Oct 27, 2016 at 9:34 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger
>>> <richschwer@gmail.com<mailto:richschwer@gmail.com> <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>> wrote:
>>>> Based on this discussion:
>>>>
>>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dpub-aria/2016Oct/0029.

>>>> html
>>>>
>>>> I want to change the dpub-aam mapping to not mapped for all
>>>> platforms. That includes (not xml-roles values for linux and
>>>> Windows IA2 mappings).
>>>> It means
>>>> that the Mac mapping would go form group to not mapped.
>>>>
>>>> Any disagreement?
>>>>
>>>> Regards,
>>>> Rich
>>>>
>>>> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>
>