Re: FW: ARIA minutes for 17 December

Red wine will help you forget.

Have a great holiday Deborah.

Best,
Rich


Rich Schwerdtfeger



From: Deborah Kaplan <dkaplan@safaribooksonline.com>
To: "Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken" <tsiegman@wiley.com>
Cc: "DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org)"
            <public-dpub-aria@w3.org>, "public-dpub-accessibility@w3.org"
            <public-dpub-accessibility@w3.org>
Date: 12/17/2015 03:20 PM
Subject: Re: FW: ARIA minutes for 17 December



  Sometimes you have a fatfinger, and an email sends to a much
  larger group of people you originally intended it to go to, and you are
  incredibly embarrassed. And then sometimes you look back at what you
  said and you think, "that was really rude, and I shouldn't have written
  any of that in the 1st place. Nor should I have thought it."

  I'm deeply sorry to everyone I just offended. I'd like to blame my
  computer for sending an email message I didn't mean to send, but it's
  my fault for writing those things down -- and honestly, for thinking
  them.

  Mea maxima culpa.

  Deborah Kaplan

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015, Deborah Kaplan wrote:

> I'm glad I wasn't there. I think I might have literally chewed through
> my desk if I had had to sit through the endless repetitions of "we
> haven't listened to anything you said or read anything you've given us."
>
> Who is CS?
>
> -Deborah
>
> On Thu, 17 Dec 2015, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken wrote:
>
>> Today's ARIA WG meeting minutes discussing some next steps for extended
>> descriptions. George and I attended. More to come.
>>
>> Tzviya Siegman
>> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
>> Wiley
>> 201-748-6884
>> tsiegman@wiley.com
>>
>>
>> -----Original Message-----
>> From: Janina Sajka [mailto:janina@rednote.net]
>> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 2:05 PM
>> To: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
>> Subject: ARIA minutes for 17 December
>>
>> Minutes from the ARIA teleconference of 17 December are provided below
as
>> text, and are available as hypertext at:
>>
>> http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-aria-minutes.html

>>
>>
>>   W3C
>>
>>
-
>> DRAFT -
>>
>>                                                              Protocols
and
>> Formats Working Group Teleconference
>>
>> 17 Dec 2015
>>
>>   See also: IRC log
>>
>> Attendees
>>
>>   Present
>>          George_Kerscher, JemmaJaEunKU, LiamQuin, MichaelC, MichielBijl,

>> Rich, ShaneM, TzviyaSiegman, fesch, janina
>>
>>   Regrets
>>          BryanGaraventa, JonGunderson, LeonieWatson, JoanmarieDiggs
>>
>>   Chair
>>          Rich
>>
>>   Scribe
>>          MichielBijl, janina
>>
>> Contents
>>
>>     * Topics
>>         1. Details/Summary and the creation of a role to identify
Extended
>> Descriptions
>>         2. Action 1736: aria-primaryaction Move to ARIA 2.0?
>>         3. aria-primary action
>>         4. Coordinating Testable Statements
>>         5. tracker migration
>>     * Summary of Action Items
>>     * Summary of Resolutions
>>
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

>>
>>   <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C ARIA Working Group
>>
>>   <richardschwerdtfeger>
>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Dec/0134.html

>>
>>   <MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl
>>
>>   <jemma> can someone copy webex meeting link here?
>>
>>   https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m5d67b552441a72bd1f52d696ad273d2e

>>
>>   <jemma> thanks Michiel
>>
>> Details/Summary and the creation of a role to identify Extended
>> Descriptions
>>
>>   <richardschwerdtfeger>
>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Dec/0134.html

>>
>>   RS: problem with link
>>   ... it can't be a role, it has to be an attribute
>>   ... you still want to know it's a link
>>   ... if it's detail/summary you want to know it is a detail/summary
>>
>>   JS: things could be external
>>
>>   CS: is this a whole new thing?
>>   ... longdesc isn't stringyfied
>>   ... how do I link to external sources on the API level?
>>
>>   RS: longdesc applies directly to an element
>>   ... What if the link is elsewhere in the document?
>>   ... What if we use details/summary?
>>   ... You could reference the details element
>>   ... you have an object that reveals the content
>>   ... I don't know if it'll work the same as longdesc
>>   ... I'm guessing AT can go in and activate the longdesc?
>>
>>   CS: This is not final, but I've been thinking of creating a hyperlink
>> pattern.
>>   ... So the element could be whatever it is, but act like a hyperlink
>>
>>   JS: that could still be internal
>>
>>   CS: It's going to be hard enough to implement one mechanism
>>   ... let alone two
>>
>>   RS: could it be just describedat?
>>   ... You don't want to stringify
>>
>>   JS: There is nothing in the HTML spec that limits it to description
>>
>>   CS: Don't think we need something special
>>
>>   GK: Information on another server can be updated.
>>
>>   <Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask if the role could be applied to what
the
>> link points to?
>>
>>   GK: We have description, simplified description, 3d printer item, each

>> has human readable description. And a way to select it.
>>
>>   TS: I have alt text, and a video description, are we talking about
>> described by?
>>   ... We can't just invent a new role
>>
>>   CS: I got two places I can put something, so there can be only two
>> things.
>>
>>   <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if the plan is to use describedby w
>> changes
>>
>>   RS: you can have a lot of stuff inside of details if you so choose.
>>   ... We need a navigation mechanism to get to the description.
>>   ... We need to say that describedby will stringify the content.
>>   ... We don't want it to be stringified whatever the mechanism
>>   ... You can put a description in a string, or a relationship.
>>   ... We need to tell the UA not to stringify it
>>
>>   JS: What is the common use case? Remote or current document?
>>
>>   CS: Use longdesc
>>
>>   JS: That is only for images
>>
>>   NOTICE: 5 minutes left for this topic
>>
>>   JS: Mozilla loads the contents of the link?
>>   ... AT will tell you there is a longdesc available
>>
>>   RS: If you point to details/summary, should provide navigation to it
>>   ... We need something to indicate that we don't stringify and that it
>> just points at something
>>   ... There is two ways to represent this visually
>>   ... You have a link to a site
>>   ... or a details/summary
>>   ... the latter can include about anything
>>   ... the user that doesn't see needs to know that there is a
describedby
>>
>>   NOTICE: We're through the discussion time for this topic
>>
>>   <mck> Matt King joined on phone
>>
>>   <ShaneM> The target should be a URI
>>
>>   <ShaneM> an IDREF is just a degenerate case of a URI
>>
>>   TS: Can't go back to DPUB with this
>>
>>   JS: We're not deciding today.
>>
>>   <clown> Suggested reading:
>> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#Descriptions_external

>>
>>   @clown any reason that can't be used?
>>
>>   <clown> MichielBijl: no, since it has been a recommended "best
practice"
>> for a while.
>>
>>   <clown> at least, I don't see why it couldn't be used.
>>
>>   Than what the hell are we discussing?
>>
>>   * long discussion about longdesc *
>>
>>   <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#Descriptions_external

>>
>>   CS: that is nice, you don't have to do anything special
>>   ... AT should set up something that indicates it points at a link
>>
>>   <clown> "It is not good practice to use the above pattern when the
>> describing element—the <a> tag with @id='longdesc1'—is
>>   http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/CR-wai-aria-20110118/terms#def_hidden, since

>> there is no way for a user to navigate to and activate the link. Use the

>> technique only when
>>   the description is not hidden. "
>>
>>   <Zakim> clown, you wanted to point out historical use of
aria-desribedby
>> in ARIA best practices.
>>
>>   You can tab to hidden links the same way we use skip links today.
>>
>>   I do want to stress that I agree this should be visible to everybody
>>
>>   What kind of books are we talking about? E-books right? People don't
>> expect the same as with a paper book right? Do they mind extra
information?
>> Do they mind the
>>   links?
>>
>>   RS: Can we drop describedat?
>>
>>   JS: Not until we have a replacement
>>
>>   <ShaneM> Should flow it out using PlantUML
>>
>>   <ShaneM> bad question: what happens when a describedby points to an
IDREF
>> that is NOT a well-defined region?
>>
>>   <MichaelC> ARIA wiki: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/

>>
>>   <janina> scribe: janina
>>
>> Action 1736: aria-primaryaction Move to ARIA 2.0?
>>
>> aria-primary action
>>
>>   action-1736?
>>
>>   <trackbot> action-1736 -- Michiel Bijl to Create an attribute to
indicate
>> a button is the primary button -- due 2015-12-10 -- OPEN
>>
>>   <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1736

>>
>>   rs: No problem by me, just one more thing to test.
>>   ... Any objections?
>>
>>   mk: We agreed last week, just wanted to make sue Rich was on board.
>>
>>   RESOLUTION: Move Issue-624 to ARIA-2.0
>>
>> Coordinating Testable Statements
>>
>>   rs: How do we avoid clashing ...
>>
>>   mc: Probably we need to generate most tests manually, regretably
>>   ... Looking for exit criteria ...
>>
>>   <MichaelC> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html

>>
>>   mc: This is the Status statement for the CR publication of 1.1, when
we
>> get to that point
>>
>>   [mc walking through status section]
>>
>>   <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd

>>
>>   mc: Believe grid tests can come over from 1.0
>>   ... then apply to role=table
>>   ... plus cross referencing grid and table ...
>>
>>   <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/

>>
>>   mc: Noting Test Harness training is Friday at 1PM Boston
>>   ... Believe ARIA tests will all come under Core-AAM 1.1
>>
>>   <MichaelC>
https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=4

>>
>>   <MichaelC>
>> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/add?testsuite_id=4

>>
>>   mc: Most important are testable statement and expected result. Can be
>> broken out by OS
>>   ... Will be a base URI for all test files
>>
>>   <MichaelC> Base for all test files:
>> https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/testfiles/1.1

>>
>>   mc: Noting all tests are migrated away from hg
>>   ... Expect tests will be on github, but don't have to be
>>
>>   rs: so git pull will get all tests?
>>
>>   mc yes
>>
>>   rs: Subdirectories?
>>
>>   mc: Think people creating should organize as they see fit
>>
>>   <MichaelC> https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/testfiles/1.0

>>
>>   mc: Only point of directories is to group related tests
>>
>>   rs: Will you migrate testable statements?
>>
>>   mc: Can. Need to know which
>>   ... Expect most will be new. We don't need to redo 1.0 tests, only new

>> stuff
>>   ... So will migrated on an "as needed" basis
>>
>>   rs: Who's working the next few weeks? Anyone?
>>
>>   fe: Me
>>
>>   ts: Also me
>>
>>   clown: not me
>>   ... no commitment--but partially tracking
>>   ... grid test files were incorect in 1.0
>>
>>   mk: Especially as we're adding table and mixed grid/table
>>
>>   cs: Maybe similar to tests I put up for table with children
>>
>>   rs: 2 rows and 2 columns as a minimum?
>>
>>   clown: 3x3 better
>>
>>   mc yes, 3x3
>>
>>   mc: to cover not first or last
>>
>>   cs: Need to think about where grid could break and test for that
>>
>>   clown: same with table
>>
>>   cs: Also interaction between html table and aria table
>>   ... we have this problem with lists, logical to believe it will happen

>> with table
>>
>> tracker migration
>>
>>   mc: Found a few issues closed but with open actions
>>   ... May be additional croft
>>   ... Can people look at their own and close things we don't need to
>> migrate?
>>   ... Also pftracker is member only, but new tracker will be public
>>   ... We need to know if anything shouldn't migrate for that reason
>>
>>   rs: but don't touch the tracker otherwise?
>>
>>   mc: No, ok to use
>>   ... Issues will begin somewhere around 2k
>>
>>   <MichaelC> ARIA Tracker
>>
>>   <MichaelC> APA Tracker
>>
>>   mc: All items will have same id
>>   ... including action numbers
>>
>>   <MichaelC> SVG A11Y TF Tracker
>>
>>   mc: Bindings to irc will change in January
>>
>>   e-eggnog all around ...
>>
>> Summary of Action Items
>>
>> Summary of Resolutions
>>
>>    1. Move Issue-624 to ARIA-2.0
>>
>>   [End of minutes]
>>
_________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

>>
>> Scribes: MichielBijl, janina
>> Present: George_Kerscher JemmaJaEunKU LiamQuin MichaelC MichielBijl Rich

>> ShaneM TzviyaSiegman fesch janina
>> Regrets: BryanGaraventa JonGunderson LeonieWatson JoanmarieDiggs Found
>> Date: 17 Dec 2015
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> Janina Sajka,   Phone:   +1.443.300.2200
>>          sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net

>>       Email:   janina@rednote.net
>>
>> Linux Foundation Fellow
>> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:   http://a11y.org

>>
>> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
>> Chair,   Protocols & Formats   http://www.w3.org/wai/pf

>>
>>
>