RE: FW: ARIA minutes for 17 December

Yes, I was happy to protect your sanity. 

CS = Cynthia Shelley of MS

Tzviya Siegman
Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
Wiley
201-748-6884
tsiegman@wiley.com 


-----Original Message-----
From: Deborah Kaplan [mailto:dkaplan@safaribooksonline.com] 
Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 4:16 PM
To: Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
Cc: DPUB-ARIA (public-dpub-aria@w3.org); public-dpub-accessibility@w3.org
Subject: Re: FW: ARIA minutes for 17 December

I'm glad I wasn't there. I think I might have literally chewed through my desk if I had had to sit through the endless repetitions of "we haven't listened to anything you said or read anything you've given us."

Who is CS?

-Deborah

On Thu, 17 Dec 2015, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken wrote:

> Today's ARIA WG meeting minutes discussing some next steps for extended descriptions. George and I attended. More to come.
>
> Tzviya Siegman
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead Wiley
> 201-748-6884
> tsiegman@wiley.com
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janina Sajka [mailto:janina@rednote.net]
> Sent: Thursday, December 17, 2015 2:05 PM
> To: W3C WAI Protocols & Formats
> Subject: ARIA minutes for 17 December
>
> Minutes from the ARIA teleconference of 17 December are provided below as text, and are available as hypertext at:
>
> http://www.w3.org/2015/12/17-aria-minutes.html

>
>
>   W3C
>
>                                                                                   - DRAFT -
>
>                                                              Protocols and Formats Working Group Teleconference
>
> 17 Dec 2015
>
>   See also: IRC log
>
> Attendees
>
>   Present
>          George_Kerscher, JemmaJaEunKU, LiamQuin, MichaelC, MichielBijl, Rich, ShaneM, TzviyaSiegman, fesch, janina
>
>   Regrets
>          BryanGaraventa, JonGunderson, LeonieWatson, JoanmarieDiggs
>
>   Chair
>          Rich
>
>   Scribe
>          MichielBijl, janina
>
> Contents
>
>     * Topics
>         1. Details/Summary and the creation of a role to identify Extended Descriptions
>         2. Action 1736: aria-primaryaction Move to ARIA 2.0?
>         3. aria-primary action
>         4. Coordinating Testable Statements
>         5. tracker migration
>     * Summary of Action Items
>     * Summary of Resolutions
>     _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>   <richardschwerdtfeger> Meeting: W3C ARIA Working Group
>
>   <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Dec/0134.html

>
>   <MichielBijl> scribe: MichielBijl
>
>   <jemma> can someone copy webex meeting link here?
>
>   https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m5d67b552441a72bd1f52d696ad273d2e
>
>   <jemma> thanks Michiel
>
> Details/Summary and the creation of a role to identify Extended Descriptions
>
>   <richardschwerdtfeger> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-pfwg/2015Dec/0134.html

>
>   RS: problem with link
>   ... it can't be a role, it has to be an attribute
>   ... you still want to know it's a link
>   ... if it's detail/summary you want to know it is a detail/summary
>
>   JS: things could be external
>
>   CS: is this a whole new thing?
>   ... longdesc isn't stringyfied
>   ... how do I link to external sources on the API level?
>
>   RS: longdesc applies directly to an element
>   ... What if the link is elsewhere in the document?
>   ... What if we use details/summary?
>   ... You could reference the details element
>   ... you have an object that reveals the content
>   ... I don't know if it'll work the same as longdesc
>   ... I'm guessing AT can go in and activate the longdesc?
>
>   CS: This is not final, but I've been thinking of creating a hyperlink pattern.
>   ... So the element could be whatever it is, but act like a hyperlink
>
>   JS: that could still be internal
>
>   CS: It's going to be hard enough to implement one mechanism
>   ... let alone two
>
>   RS: could it be just describedat?
>   ... You don't want to stringify
>
>   JS: There is nothing in the HTML spec that limits it to description
>
>   CS: Don't think we need something special
>
>   GK: Information on another server can be updated.
>
>   <Zakim> clown, you wanted to ask if the role could be applied to what the link points to?
>
>   GK: We have description, simplified description, 3d printer item, each has human readable description. And a way to select it.
>
>   TS: I have alt text, and a video description, are we talking about described by?
>   ... We can't just invent a new role
>
>   CS: I got two places I can put something, so there can be only two things.
>
>   <Zakim> tzviya, you wanted to ask if the plan is to use describedby w changes
>
>   RS: you can have a lot of stuff inside of details if you so choose.
>   ... We need a navigation mechanism to get to the description.
>   ... We need to say that describedby will stringify the content.
>   ... We don't want it to be stringified whatever the mechanism
>   ... You can put a description in a string, or a relationship.
>   ... We need to tell the UA not to stringify it
>
>   JS: What is the common use case? Remote or current document?
>
>   CS: Use longdesc
>
>   JS: That is only for images
>
>   NOTICE: 5 minutes left for this topic
>
>   JS: Mozilla loads the contents of the link?
>   ... AT will tell you there is a longdesc available
>
>   RS: If you point to details/summary, should provide navigation to it
>   ... We need something to indicate that we don't stringify and that it just points at something
>   ... There is two ways to represent this visually
>   ... You have a link to a site
>   ... or a details/summary
>   ... the latter can include about anything
>   ... the user that doesn't see needs to know that there is a describedby
>
>   NOTICE: We're through the discussion time for this topic
>
>   <mck> Matt King joined on phone
>
>   <ShaneM> The target should be a URI
>
>   <ShaneM> an IDREF is just a degenerate case of a URI
>
>   TS: Can't go back to DPUB with this
>
>   JS: We're not deciding today.
>
>   <clown> Suggested reading: http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#Descriptions_external

>
>   @clown any reason that can't be used?
>
>   <clown> MichielBijl: no, since it has been a recommended "best practice" for a while.
>
>   <clown> at least, I don't see why it couldn't be used.
>
>   Than what the hell are we discussing?
>
>   * long discussion about longdesc *
>
>   <clown> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-practices/#Descriptions_external

>
>   CS: that is nice, you don't have to do anything special
>   ... AT should set up something that indicates it points at a link
>
>   <clown> "It is not good practice to use the above pattern when the describing element—the <a> tag with @id='longdesc1'—is
>   http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/CR-wai-aria-20110118/terms#def_hidden, since there is no way for a user to navigate to and activate the link. Use the technique only when
>   the description is not hidden. "
>
>   <Zakim> clown, you wanted to point out historical use of aria-desribedby in ARIA best practices.
>
>   You can tab to hidden links the same way we use skip links today.
>
>   I do want to stress that I agree this should be visible to everybody
>
>   What kind of books are we talking about? E-books right? People don't expect the same as with a paper book right? Do they mind extra information? Do they mind the
>   links?
>
>   RS: Can we drop describedat?
>
>   JS: Not until we have a replacement
>
>   <ShaneM> Should flow it out using PlantUML
>
>   <ShaneM> bad question: what happens when a describedby points to an IDREF that is NOT a well-defined region?
>
>   <MichaelC> ARIA wiki: http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/wiki/

>
>   <janina> scribe: janina
>
> Action 1736: aria-primaryaction Move to ARIA 2.0?
>
> aria-primary action
>
>   action-1736?
>
>   <trackbot> action-1736 -- Michiel Bijl to Create an attribute to indicate a button is the primary button -- due 2015-12-10 -- OPEN
>
>   <trackbot> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/Group/track/actions/1736

>
>   rs: No problem by me, just one more thing to test.
>   ... Any objections?
>
>   mk: We agreed last week, just wanted to make sue Rich was on board.
>
>   RESOLUTION: Move Issue-624 to ARIA-2.0
>
> Coordinating Testable Statements
>
>   rs: How do we avoid clashing ...
>
>   mc: Probably we need to generate most tests manually, regretably
>   ... Looking for exit criteria ...
>
>   <MichaelC> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html

>
>   mc: This is the Status statement for the CR publication of 1.1, when we get to that point
>
>   [mc walking through status section]
>
>   <clown> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/CR-pub/aria/aria.html#sotd

>
>   mc: Believe grid tests can come over from 1.0
>   ... then apply to role=table
>   ... plus cross referencing grid and table ...
>
>   <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/

>
>   mc: Noting Test Harness training is Friday at 1PM Boston
>   ... Believe ARIA tests will all come under Core-AAM 1.1
>
>   <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases?testsuite_id=4

>
>   <MichaelC> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/testharness/testcases/add?testsuite_id=4

>
>   mc: Most important are testable statement and expected result. Can be broken out by OS
>   ... Will be a base URI for all test files
>
>   <MichaelC> Base for all test files: https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/testfiles/1.1

>
>   mc: Noting all tests are migrated away from hg
>   ... Expect tests will be on github, but don't have to be
>
>   rs: so git pull will get all tests?
>
>   mc yes
>
>   rs: Subdirectories?
>
>   mc: Think people creating should organize as they see fit
>
>   <MichaelC> https://github.com/w3c/aria/tree/master/testfiles/1.0

>
>   mc: Only point of directories is to group related tests
>
>   rs: Will you migrate testable statements?
>
>   mc: Can. Need to know which
>   ... Expect most will be new. We don't need to redo 1.0 tests, only new stuff
>   ... So will migrated on an "as needed" basis
>
>   rs: Who's working the next few weeks? Anyone?
>
>   fe: Me
>
>   ts: Also me
>
>   clown: not me
>   ... no commitment--but partially tracking
>   ... grid test files were incorect in 1.0
>
>   mk: Especially as we're adding table and mixed grid/table
>
>   cs: Maybe similar to tests I put up for table with children
>
>   rs: 2 rows and 2 columns as a minimum?
>
>   clown: 3x3 better
>
>   mc yes, 3x3
>
>   mc: to cover not first or last
>
>   cs: Need to think about where grid could break and test for that
>
>   clown: same with table
>
>   cs: Also interaction between html table and aria table
>   ... we have this problem with lists, logical to believe it will happen with table
>
> tracker migration
>
>   mc: Found a few issues closed but with open actions
>   ... May be additional croft
>   ... Can people look at their own and close things we don't need to migrate?
>   ... Also pftracker is member only, but new tracker will be public
>   ... We need to know if anything shouldn't migrate for that reason
>
>   rs: but don't touch the tracker otherwise?
>
>   mc: No, ok to use
>   ... Issues will begin somewhere around 2k
>
>   <MichaelC> ARIA Tracker
>
>   <MichaelC> APA Tracker
>
>   mc: All items will have same id
>   ... including action numbers
>
>   <MichaelC> SVG A11Y TF Tracker
>
>   mc: Bindings to irc will change in January
>
>   e-eggnog all around ...
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
> Summary of Resolutions
>
>    1. Move Issue-624 to ARIA-2.0
>
>   [End of minutes]
>     _________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Scribes: MichielBijl, janina
> Present: George_Kerscher JemmaJaEunKU LiamQuin MichaelC MichielBijl Rich ShaneM TzviyaSiegman fesch janina
> Regrets: BryanGaraventa JonGunderson LeonieWatson JoanmarieDiggs Found Date: 17 Dec 2015
>
>
> -- 
>
> Janina Sajka, Phone: +1.443.300.2200
>    sip:janina@asterisk.rednote.net

>   Email: janina@rednote.net
>
> Linux Foundation Fellow
> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup: http://a11y.org

>
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Chair, Protocols & Formats http://www.w3.org/wai/pf

>
>
>

Received on Thursday, 17 December 2015 21:20:10 UTC