Re: As an aside, a possibly interesting read....

As it stands now, no. So a book’s “home” on the web (regardless of
edition) is not standardizable at this point unless you want to go down
the DOI road (please let’s not go down the DOI road).

On 9/24/14, 4:13 AM, "Ivan Herman" <ivan@w3.org> wrote:

>Thanks for all the interesting discussion...
>
>However: all this is to say that there does not seem to be any existing
>(and viable) option to uniquely identify (preferably through a URI) a
>'work' (whether in the ISTC or the FRBR sense). Which is a problem for
>metadata as well as for archiving. :-( Tell me I am wrong, please...
>
>Ivan
>
>
>On 24 Sep 2014, at 24:19 , Graham Bell <graham@editeur.org> wrote:
>
>> And they can be treated this way in ONIX too. As I said,
>> 
>>> they are not (strictly) an attribute of the ISBN, though they may be
>>>presented as such in various systems
>> 
>> G
>> 
>> NB repeatable because the ISBN is associated directly with only one
>>work, but can be indirectly associated (through that work) with several
>>other works.
>> 
>> 
>> On 23 Sep 2014, at 21:12, LAURA DAWSON wrote:
>> 
>>> Yes, even at Bowker we made them a repeatable attribute on the ISBN
>>>record.
>>> 
>>> From: "Madans, Phil" <Phil.Madans@hbgusa.com>
>>> Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 at 3:13 PM
>>> To: Laura Dawson <ljndawson@gmail.com>, Graham Bell
>>><graham@editeur.org>, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>, Ivan
>>>Herman <ivan@w3.org>, W3C Public Digital Publishing IG Mailing List
>>><public-digipub-ig-comment@w3.org>
>>> Subject: Re: As an aside, a possibly interesting read....
>>> 
>>> I stand corrected on the assignment of the ISTC. Bad choice of words.
>>>I was speaking more on how I would have to manage them internally on
>>>the systems level―that’s how I think about these things―and that would
>>>be as an attribute.  That  all depends on how titles systems are
>>>structured, and I’m not saying ours is the best way to do things, but I
>>>think the way we do it is how most do it these days. From a practical
>>>standpoint, I’m not sure how else I could handle them. IF I publish an
>>>English and Spanish edition of a work, and the ISTC’s are different,
>>>then they would be attributes of the ISBNs so that I could keep them
>>>linked internally.  We are already doing this, as is most everyone
>>>else, and I think that is why the ISTC was such a hard sell.
>>> 
>>> ------------------------------------------------------------
>>> Phil Madans | Executive Director of Digital Publishing Technology |
>>>Hachette Book Group | 237 Park Avenue NY 10017 |212-364-1415 |
>>>phil.madans@hbgusa.com
>>> 
>>> From: LAURA DAWSON <ljndawson@gmail.com>
>>> Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 at 2:22 PM
>>> To: Graham Bell <graham@editeur.org>, Phil Madans
>>><phil.madans@hbgusa.com>, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>,
>>>Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>, W3C Public Digital Publishing IG Mailing
>>>List <public-digipub-ig-comment@w3.org>
>>> Subject: Re: As an aside, a possibly interesting read....
>>> 
>>> Bowker was an ISTC registration agency until recently. We pulled out
>>>because of the lack of support in the US, and refer the few curious to
>>>Nielsen. 
>>> 
>>> From: Graham Bell <graham@editeur.org>
>>> Date: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 at 2:09 PM
>>> To: Phil Madans <Phil.Madans@hbgusa.com>, Laura Dawson
>>><ljndawson@gmail.com>, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>, Ivan
>>>Herman <ivan@w3.org>, W3C Public Digital Publishing IG Mailing List
>>><public-digipub-ig-comment@w3.org>
>>> Subject: Re: As an aside, a possibly interesting read....
>>> 
>>> What Phil and Laura have written certainly summarises -- and
>>>illustrates -- the debate over identifiers.
>>> 
>>> But the text below (from Phil) is a little misleading.
>>> 
>>>> Whether an ISTC
>>>> is a real work Identifier or not is a matter of debate. I disagree
>>>>that ii
>>>> is. It is actually an attribute of the ISBN―-hat is how they are
>>>>assigned.
>>>> Different ISBNs of the same master content might have different
>>>>ISTC’s.
>>>> Translations for instance.
>>> 
>>> The 'rules' of the ISTC say that translations are by definition
>>>different works, and MUST have different ISTCs (though those ISTCs will
>>>be related to each other -- one is a 'derived work', and this close
>>>relationship is recorded in the registration metadata for the ISTCs
>>>themselves). This contrasts with library practice, where 'work' is
>>>something at a higher level and two translations are actually termed
>>>two 'expressions' of the same 'work'. In library terms, the ISTC is an
>>>expression identifier. See the attached PDF (a slide from a training
>>>session that I deliver fairly regularly) for a summary of how the
>>><indecs> model on which ISTC and ONIX are based compares with the FRBR
>>>library model. There is -- as far as I know -- no public identifier
>>>that works at the FRBR:work level, though libraries may have internal
>>>IDs.
>>> 
>>> And I'm pretty sure ISTCs can be assigned without an ISBN (and without
>>>any product ID at all, in fact) -- they are not (strictly) an attribute
>>>of the ISBN, though they may be presented as such in various systems.
>>>They can be registered based on a manuscript, prior to there being a
>>>product.
>>> 
>>> On the other hand, there's no doubt that ISTC has so far proved
>>>unpopular among publishers, for some of the reasons Laura and Phil
>>>list, and its actual usage is minimal.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Graham
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> Graham Bell
>>> EDItEUR
>>> 
>>> Tel: +44 20 7503 6418
>>> Mob: +44 7887 754958
>>> 
>>> EDItEUR Limited is a company limited by guarantee, registered in
>>>England no 2994705. Registered Office: United House, North Road, London
>>>N7 9DP, UK. Website: http://www.editeur.org
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> 
>>> This may contain confidential material. If you are not an intended
>>>recipient, please notify the sender, delete immediately, and understand
>>>that no disclosure or reliance on the information herein is permitted.
>>>Hachette Book Group may monitor email to and from our network.
>> 
>
>
>----
>Ivan Herman, W3C 
>Digital Publishing Activity Lead
>Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
>mobile: +31-641044153
>GPG: 0x343F1A3D
>WebID: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf#me
>
>
>
>
>

Received on Wednesday, 24 September 2014 18:55:19 UTC