- From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 26 Aug 2014 10:54:36 +0200
- To: W3C Public Digital Publishing IG Mailing List <public-digipub-ig-comment@w3.org>, public-pfwg@w3.org
- Cc: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>, Markus Gylling <markus.gylling@gmail.com>
- Message-Id: <E9070772-DEE6-4CD8-8510-2CA85BA68DAA@w3.org>
Minutes are here:
http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-minutes.html
with the textual version below. I hope I got everbody's name all right; if not, my apologies (and contact me so that I could change it). Thanks to Tim Cole for scribing.
Thanks to all for coming!
Ivan
----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Activity Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
GPG: 0x343F1A3D
WebID: http://www.ivan-herman.net/foaf#me
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Joint meeting of the WAI PF WG and the DPUB IG
25 Aug 2014
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2014/08/25-dpub-irc
Attendees
Present
For the PF WG: Janina Sajka, Rich Schwerdtfeger, George
Kerscher, Matt Haas, Suzann Keohane, Shane McCarron,
Joseph Scheuhammer (clown), Matt King, Bryan Garaventa,
Lisa Seeman, Jon Gunderson, Cynthia Shelly
For the DPUB IG: Deborah Kaplan (dkapklan3), Ivan
Herman, Luc Audrain, Tzviya Siegman, Paul Belfanti
(pBelfanti), David Stroup, Tim Cole, Markus Gylling
(mgylling), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Peter Kreutzberger
(pkra)
Chair
Ivan Herman
Scribe
Tim Cole
Contents
* [3]Topics
* [4]Structural Semantics
* [5]Other areas of a11y related collaboration
[6]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 25 August 2014
Group references: [7]PF WG, [8]DPUB IG
[7] http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/
[8] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/
structural semantics
tzviya: working on building vocabulary we would like to see
added in Open Web Platform
tzviya: example: chapter -- concept doesn't exist in HTML
<tzviya> [9]http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics
[9] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/StructuralSemantics
tzviya: some of these structural elements have associated
behaviors.
a key reason is because of the way some of these elements
interact with assistative technologies
Rich move from role to something else.
tzviya -- tag would be managed by PF, but values by IDPF
Rich - you want this to work with HTML Validator
tzviya: Absolutely.
rich - currently limit aria values
Rich -- reluctance to open values up because you might not be
able to provide fall back if browser didn't know about
values...
clown - some of the APIs take role string as is and stick into
a property
<richardschwerdtfeger> <div role=“chapter region”>
Rich - do you see an issue with authors having second value (as
fall back)?
markus - may be a non-starter for publishers; hard enough to
get them to include basic semantics
tzviya - may not be too hard for larger publishers; but for
smaller publishers a decision tree might be too much.
Matt - if native element was <div> you have an element with no
semantics
Rich - but not an issue based on current definitions; even if
browser doesn't know about it today, assistive technologies
have something to work with...
<clown> I'm still getting: This conference is full. Any way to
expand the size?
Rich - dpub IG wants to use role attribute, but if browser
doesn't know about value, then a second value is needed for
fall back
Rich -- that may be a non-starter, but if you have a single
value, falling back to native language may be good enough
cynthia - that should be acceptable
jon gunderson -- dom may eventually have a computed role. How
would fall back option affect computed role?
Rich - if we had computed role, could compare it to computed
role and if they don't match generate a warning
jon 2nd question -- would developers take EPUB3 roles and try
to use in HTML 5; would validators distinguish between EPUB3
and HTML5 for validation
Ivan - what is the way a separate group can define new roles
while HTML 5 group is doing their thing?
Rich - no mechanism now, but we will have to address long term
Shane - roles accepted by Validator are defined by a document
that both PF and HTML 5 can edit
Ivan - do that reference that document?
Shane - they refer to it manually.
Ivan - both groups have write permissions to this document?
Shane - that is my understanding
Ivan - then EPUB could get values added by working with either
group, but how big is EPUB list
tzviya about 100 terms
<tzviya> epub 3 structural semantic vocab
[10]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
[10] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
<dauwhe> Is this the doc in question?
[11]http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab
[11] http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml/vocab
Shane - the role attribute spec references the document.
Shane role attribute spec allows for independent role
vocabularies to be added by rdfa mechanism
Shane would it be acceptable to have EPUB role values scoped?
markus - some of the EPUB roles will be common, some are more
niched (albeit still important)
markus - it could be that the niche roles could be separated
out in a prefixed way.
??? if might be a tough call to say which are the most generic,
most crucial
<Luc> It would preferable to have a general mechanism for
adding vocabulary for EPUB
shaneM - validator was rejecting namespaced role values, but
they are not opposed to it, just need to close the loop
Rich - you don't want to namespace everything that is commonly
used -- is this a fair assumption
markus - yes
tzviya - the real desire is to create html once and use it
everywhere
<Luc> +1
tzviya - we want to avoid namespaces and make it easy to author
<richardschwerdtfeger> role=“epub:chapter”
tzviya - would prefer not to namespace chapter, for example
tzviya - and if you do namespace more obscure roles, they are
less likely to get used.
<mgylling> [12]http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
[12] http://www.idpf.org/epub/vocab/structure/
lisa - needs to be successful not just for EPUB authors but
also for others with cognitive disabilities
ivan - some of the dpub / EPUB roles are very useful for other
communities
<ShaneM> Note that some roles are already esoteric.
<Zakim> janina, you wanted to ask whether we intend these roles
only for a11y? Or also for general use?
<ShaneM> "Accessibility is for both meat and machine" is
something I get to say all the time.
janina - overarching question: you don't need a disability to
appreciate roles; do we anticipate that this will have a
general applicability?
several - yes.
Rich - we would do harm if we didn't have a vehicle for opening
this up to broader community.
ivan - need to see what is next step. We need to document where
we want to go and how.
Rich - we need a joint effort between dp ig and pf wg (aria
subteam)
markus - that makes sense. one of the things people in idpf
want to know is the size of the effort.
Rich - need to provide that to dp ig but also other
stakeholders within idpf
janina and tzviya have an action to start this from the pf and
dpub ig sides
ivan - both groups will be meeting f2f at TPAC. we should try
to find time to have a session together
Other areas of a11y related collaboration
deborah - what is the why that dp task force can collaborate
with PF?
Rich need someone to take lead and run with this.
this will take weekly or near weekly meetings
markus - I think deborah's question was about more broad
collaboration
janina - we could write a statement with deliverable as well as
with a general statement about liaison
ivan - so what are the reasonable deliverables?
deborah - what are the deliverables?
rich - 1. role attribute value module, 2. a guide for browsers,
3. guidelines for authors
we learned in the ARIA 1.1 effort that we had to write
specification for implementation
ivan - still a little in the dark, what would a guide for
browser / user agent guidelines mean? what could dp ig
contribute?
Rich - each browser maps to accessible technologies on the
platform
rich - for a book reader, how do we specify that we want to
navigate by book chapter?
rich - does W3 specify or does IPDF?
rich - if you put EPUB semantics in your document, who defines
how the browser uses this structure?
markus - that seems like something that could stay (for now at
least) with dp ig / IDPF
focus for now on the mappings to accessible APIs
??? how about authoring practices?
markus - there are already some resources on authoring best
practices
ivan - dp ig should look at core accessibility guidelines and
see how complete they are for dp
deborah - pf wg wants to address gaps as they are identified
george - the semantics that are being introduced go a long way
tzviya - a lot of what deborah is getting at seems overlaps.
can deborah work with tzviya and janina
to be clear pf wg wants to help identify gaps, though other
groups may work on these issues
ivan - tzviya, janina and deborah will try to have a document
by about mid-September. follow-up with call or during TPAC
Summary of Action Items
Action: Tzviya, Janina, and Deborah to have a document by about
mid-September. Follow-up with call or during TPAC
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [13]scribe.perl version
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$Date: 2014-08-26 07:09:56 $
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Received on Tuesday, 26 August 2014 08:55:08 UTC