- From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 20 Oct 2015 07:01:38 +0200
- To: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
- Cc: Jake Archibald <jakearchibald@google.com>
- Message-Id: <173CEEA3-01DD-4445-B983-FBC694F3E60E@w3.org>
Minutes are here:
http://www.w3.org/2015/10/19-dpub-minutes.html <http://www.w3.org/2015/10/19-dpub-minutes.html>
textual version below.
Jake, thanks again for joining this call
Ivan
----
Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
19 Oct 2015
[2]Agenda
[2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Oct/0058.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2015/10/19-dpub-irc
Attendees
Present
Peter Krautzberger, Dave Cramer, Markus Gylling, Luc
Audrain, Nick Barreto, Tzviya Siegman, Heather Flanagan,
Ivan Herman, Bill Kasdorf, Deborah Kaplan, Paul
Belfanti, Karen Myers, Julie Morris, Tim Cole, Charles
LaPierre, Alan Stearns, Daniel Weck
Guest
Jake Archibald
Regrets
Ben De Meester, Brady Duga, Laura Fowler, Ayla Stein,
Zheng Xu
Chair
tzviya
Scribe
mgylling
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]last weeks minutes
2. [6]ServiceWorkers with special guest Jake Archibald
3. [7]extend descriptions for images and other things
4. [8]PWP outreach
* [9]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 19 October 2015
<tzviya> agenda:
[10]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015
Oct/0039.html
[10] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Oct/0039.html
scribenick mgylling
<tzviya> scribe: mgylling
tzviya: new member introduction: Nick Barreto
nickbarreto: I am the cofounder of Canelo, a digital publisher
in the UK.
… been working with ebooks mostly for large publishers, one of
the the things we care about is doing digital publishing not as
an afterthought but bringing it to the forefront
<tzviya> [11]http://www.w3.org/2015/10/12-dpub-minutes.html
[11] http://www.w3.org/2015/10/12-dpub-minutes.html
Tzviya: We are happy to have you
last weeks minutes
tzviya: any comments?
Luc: I was present but I am not on the list
ServiceWorkers with special guest Jake Archibald
<Karen> PWP
Jake: I work for Google Chrome in the UK, one of the co-editors
of the Service Workers spec
<tzviya> [12]http://www.w3.org/TR/service-workers/
[12] http://www.w3.org/TR/service-workers/
… what do you want to know from me? An overview?
… SW itself is just a javascript runtime that can operate on a
separate thread. Key difference in life cycle is that it can
spin up without the existence of pages on the origin
… the starting point for the web becomes the SW rather than the
page. One of the key features is offline because you get a
fetch event for every request the page makes, so you can create
an offline experience by listening for fetch events
… you get to choose what to do, the default being nothing, but
you can create a response, a string or blob and send that back
… or you can fetch things from named caches, from IndexedDB
… gold standard of this type of app development is “offline
first”, create the offline experience before even attempting to
go to the network, seeing the network as progressive
enhancement
… the aim is to ship stuff from the caches as quickly as
possible, and then go to the network
… lots of user experience we are trying to figure out now, but
the SW specification doesn't make any of these decision
<tzviya> [13]http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-pwp-20151015/#arch
[13] http://www.w3.org/TR/2015/WD-pwp-20151015/#arch
tzviya: summary I hope fits with the PWP document we have
published
… historically most digital publications are an offline
experience, but we are looking to bridge online and offline for
the user as a seamless experience
Jake: haven’t had time to read the PWP doc yet
dauwhe: I played around with this a little bit, one of the
things we are thinking about is how to we make ebooks first
class citizens on the web. How can we make a good reading
experience in browsers without the need for dedicated reading
systems? Basic functionality we want to achieve on the web, and
reading offline is one example of the functionality we need
… using SW was step on, I am curious about what more could we
do? If the SW intercepts a URL request, can it redirect?
Jake: when the user requests a particular URL you can respond
with another. We are also working on streams
… you could use a SW to build an ebook reader which would
request one of these ebook formats on the fly and rewrite it to
HTML, even streaming if the ebook format supports streaming
dauwhe: in EPUB we are looking at an unzipped format
Jake: the problem with the zip format is that the directory is
at the end of the file
dauwhe: Readium uses byte ranges I think for zip
ivan: There is work going on on more streamable web packaging,
heard gossip that all this was pending, since SW would take
care of it. Do you know about this?
<dauwhe> [14]http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/
[14] http://w3ctag.github.io/packaging-on-the-web/
Jake: a while ago I heard about this, personally I am not sure
what the benefits are, we have a platform where we can store
things separately. I guess that's why they are waiting for SW.
We are very much subscribed to the extensible web manifesto
with this, going as low as we can.
… but something like recieving a zip format and searching
inside is one thing SW can do
ivan: that was the main reason they were looking at the
packaging stuff, the other questions I have is more on the
practical side: I looked at the spec, I am not a webapp
developer and I could not understand it. Is there work going on
to sort of popularize the whole thing to make it more
palatable?
Jake: I symphatize, as a web developer even I find the specs
impenetrable. At the moment I am working on an offline course
through Udacity [?] and free
… hope to release that in December, hope to convert it to a
series of articles as well
<tzviya> [15]https://jakearchibald.com/ is also helpful
[15] https://jakearchibald.com/
Ivan: it is part of Chrome already, works in Firefox too, what
about the other two?
Jake: Firefox will be fully implemented soon. Microsoft has
given thumbs up, but has not started work on it. The big
question everyone asks is about iOS Safari. We are not sure
about the progress there. They are now taking part in the F2F
meetings which is a positive.
… but there is no date for that
BillK: we should be careful to avoid the linear eBook paradigm,
not just a matter of unpacking an navigating linearly
Jake: F2F next week we will try to solve how to deal with range
requests
… can you build a cached item progressively using multiple
requests
… the web doesn't really need packaged formats, range requests
are a preferred model
… I took a stab at making an offline version of Wikipedia. That
model worked really well, you might not cache the whole thing
offline
dauwhe: I just wanted to partly answer Ivan's question about
the difficulty of the spec. There were enough tutorials out
there that I could create my sample using that.
Jake: one of the things on our TODO list for next year is a
shim for SW that will read AppCache manifests, to provide a
path for people who just wants to read a list of files
… we want to sit back and see what the common things are
DanielWeck: I am a developer at Readium, OSS implementation of
EPUB 3 Reading Systems, native apps and web-based readers inc a
Chrome app.
… Readium will read an EPUB that is exploded on the server
side. Unzip onto a filesystem on a server, and Readium can
fetch the data from the unpacked file system. The challenges we
face is when we try to fetch data in the zipped form.
… what we have to do extract the contents of the EPUB on the
fly, we can do that using a ZIP library and using byte-range
requests, however the main caveat is that we have to
preprocess, parse the content recursively and populate that
tree with blob URIs which creates problems in a WebView. But SW
solves that problem since we can intercept requests
… using syntactic conventions we can capture that via the fetch
event and return responses that will emit a payload
… this could be extended to media files, but we haven't
implemented that yet
… Our implementation does not use SW for caching, only for
request intercepts
… caveats: the domain scope of the SW implementation has to be
hosted under a particular location on the filesystem on the
serverside
Jake: that is true but you can override that with a header
DanielWeck: we’ve got same-origin requirements on EPUB content,
is that inflexible?
Jake. Yeah. The whole reason for the same-origin constraints is
[…] security and privacy
DanielWeck: requirements for https. I didn't face any issues
there, but you have to use https?
Jake: Yes, we tried to avoid but couldn't find a way to do it
… if you are on a router that is not yours, you don't know it
is safe, if you access BBC news, a man in the middle can
intercept that, which is bad. But it gets worse if the register
a service worker which can intercept and live beyond the
session lifetime. That is possible with AppCache, which is
really bad.
DanielWeck: the fact that the SW is by design [???] we don't
want to wait for SW registration to finish. The need to reload
the page […]
Jake: I would have some kind of, if
navigator.serviceworker.controller is undefined, show some kind
of loading screen. You dont need to refresh the page, you can
call client.claim()
<DanielWeck> delayed Service Worker registration (first-time
reload), general Worker restrictions (no XmlHTTPRequest),
browser support
tzviya: Daniel: sounds like you have many questions for Jake.
Maybe we can solve this via email.
<astearns> what's the best public list for service worker
feedback/questions?
… at TPAC we cant do a formal meeting since our groups are
meeting on the same day, but informal discussions we hope can
happen
ivan: the work we do in this interest group might rely a lot on
Service Workers moving forward, in the future we may need
probably several times help from you
Jake: thats what I am here for
tzviya: Daniel maybe we can arrange for you to call in
... thanks Jake!
extend descriptions for images and other things
deborah: I believe we are just doing a brief update, we had
been given a request from PF to tell us if this is what you
want, we made some modifications which are here:
<dkaplan3>
[16]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/extended-descriptio
n-analysis.html
[16] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/extended-description-analysis.html
<dkaplan3>
[17]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/extended-descriptio
n-analysis.html#use-cases
[17] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-accessibility/extended-description-analysis.html#use-cases
most changes are in the use cases section, where we talk about
the possible use cases for ED. We have stepped back from
pushing a particular term, and instead focus on the behavior we
need
… this is a list of functionality the Digital Publishing needs
for accessibility purposes
ivan: shoot
deborah: then that's what we will do
… extra thanks to Mia Lipner from Pearson
tzviya: and many thanks to Deborah too
PWP outreach
karen: thanks to tzviya and nick we started to iterate and
here’s a draft
… to contextualize what this PWP is and what it means. We are
hoping that you could take a look
… scroll down to communications planning. Still needs some
links and things. After our discussion last week, we wanted
feedback to see if this communication makes sense, for W3C,
IDPF, DBW, PW, etc
ivan: whats the timing? We have published but we haven't done
any outreach
karen: preferred timing would be next week
<Karen> Not yet, no
… lets wait with tweeting etc until we agree with the messaging
tzviya: five minutes left
… next week no meeting since we are at TPAC
… in the following week we will have shifted daylight savings.
We will stay with the local times and shift the UTC.
<dauwhe> werewolf time!
tzviya: thanks everyone
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
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Received on Tuesday, 20 October 2015 05:01:53 UTC