- From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
- Date: Mon, 06 Jul 2015 18:10:22 +0200
- To: "public-digipub-ig@w3.org >> W3C Digital Publishing IG" <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Hi all,
The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
dated 2015-07-06 are now available at
http://www.w3.org/2015/07/06-dpub-minutes.html
These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.
Best,
Thierry Michel
---------------------------
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
06 Jul 2015
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://www.w3.org/mid/b9986cf719ea4f3bafc2669f4a3ab2d0@CAR-WNMBP-006.wiley.com
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2015/07/06-dpub-irc
Attendees
Present
Dave Cramer, Tzviya Siegman, Bill Kasdorf, Chris Lilley,
Toru Kawakubo, Ivan Herman, Tim Cole, Brady Duga, Deborah
Kaplan, Ben De Meester, Peter Kreutzberger, Thierry Michel,
David Stroup, Alan Stearns, Vladimir Levantovsky, NickRuffilo.
Regrets
Luc Audrain, Phil Madans, Heather Flanagan, Julie Morris ,
Zheng Xu.
Chair
Tzviya Siegman
Scribe
Nick Ruffilo
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]describedAt
* [6]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 06 July 2015
<scribe> scribenick: NickRuffilo
<tzviya> agenda:
[7]https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015J
ul/0007.html
[7]
https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2015Jul/0007.html
<Bill_Kasdorf> I think Dave added a seventh agenda item, right?
huh ui'm not getting audio hold
<tzviya> [8]http://www.w3.org/2015/06/29-dpub-minutes.html
[8] http://www.w3.org/2015/06/29-dpub-minutes.html
<pkra> I got that.
<ChrisL> webex says michael miller
<pkra> webex is such a snitch
tzviya: "We have some new people and unidentified people..."
<ChrisL> can ppl hear me?
<astearns> no
No chris - still muted
<ChrisL> well, odd
<astearns> there we go
OK - we hear you
Chris: "Hello! I'm Chris Lilly technical director of
Interaction Domain - involved in CSS, web-fonts, SVG. In
particular, I'm here because I want a closer liason with CSS
working group and Houdini. And what DPUB wants. I was invited
for this call - and expect to participate regularly."
Tzviya: "Anyone else new on the call? There are some new
joiners of DPUB. Not sure if you're on the call or in IRC"
<ChrisL> congrats Alan!
Tzviya: "Adding a comment about DPUB and CSS -> the CSS Working
group as identified new chairs - and Alan Sterns is one of the
new chairs. Congratulations!"
<Karen> +1 Alan as new co-chair in October
Alan: "I will not be chair until october"
<Bill_Kasdorf> +1
<pkra> +1
<ivan> +1
Tzviya: "I believe there is only 1 thing on the agenda -
discussing CSS with Chris. I've posted a bunch of links to CSS,
our requirements, houdini. Dave has added many links to our
priorities. Just the morning he added stuff to that. I'll turn
this over to dave and chris"
<dauwhe>
[9]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Functional_Requirements_for_
Pagination
[9]
https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Functional_Requirements_for_Pagination
<dauwhe>
[10]https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15IsDMPwSXx197Iqe4I9
xh7K8anmJ5c0-OFEG7w0LHYM/edit#gid=2138850308
[10]
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/15IsDMPwSXx197Iqe4I9xh7K8anmJ5c0-OFEG7w0LHYM/edit#gid=2138850308
<dauwhe>
[11]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html
[11] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html
Dave: "We have been working on a couple of things - first was
the wiki page that has functional requirements - based on early
work by Brady - interacting with pages stuff. We're trying to
collect our requirements there. The 2nd piece that we started
working on is an explicit CSS priorities document which has
been a google spreadsheet."
<ChrisL> oh, I hadn't seen that spreadsheet before
...: "We will start to move it to a different format once it's
more final and written up in a better format. There are tons of
information and it's a challenge to figure out the best way to
show it. But, it sort of feels useful to start collecting all
these things 'in one place' that is really multiple places"
Chris: "Dave is on the CSS group - I've poked him about Latin
Requirements. But then there are all these other things that
have new things."
davE: "One of the core issues is - what is the reason for being
for LatinReq... It didn't have anything to say about
implementations and priorities."
Chris: "I wasn't suggesting that it need be the only doc, just
the only place I was looking."
Dave: "Yes, LatinReq isn't enough - we need a W3C document that
notes more information."
Tzviya: "We're hoping to get a bit of clarification of what is
going on with houdini and how this fits it in."
Chris: "A feature of the web is using polyfills - so people
don't have to wait for features to be added. This sort-of works
but tends not to work if you use a bunch of them together. It
ends up doing lots of re-implementation, which is pointless as
the browser already knows how to do it. Also there are some
things that are really hard to extend as it happens under the
hood. The idea of houdini
(and it's named after a magician) because it's trying to remove
some of the hand-waving."
...: "It's a sub-group of CSS and the tag, but it's more API
based. I think this is a new focus on new APIs and new
extensibility points. To make it less abstract - we plan on
exposing the box tree - it's largely assumed that the boxes
that are made follow the element tree (there are a bunch of
differences - and many over time) especially when you go across
a fragment. You also might want to
have things like Pages in there as well - which belong in a box
tree and not the DOM tree. That is how I see houdini fitting
in."
<dauwhe> [12]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-display/#intro
[12] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-display/#intro
Dave: "In the CSS display spec there is a note about what it
means to be in the box tree and DOM tree. This may end up being
where we use these things - the display tree."
<Bill_Kasdorf> +1 to Karen
Karen: "That was one of the more articulate descriptions of
houdini! Thank you! We really need to go to the next level of
explaining 'what is this and how does it work together' so not
only our members, but people interested have a clue. The next
step would be to prepare a more plain-english 'for resources,
for publishers, ...' think about how do we best communicate
some of the work that we
are doing to our community right now."
Chris: "I agree that it is needed - and many W3C working groups
need to work on. For houdini it is still up in the air, but in
the upcoming Paris meeting, I believe we will be tackling this,
and in October that would be a good time to address this
issue."
Karen: "I'll sync up with Nick on this."
Ivan: "What you describe is one end of the spectrum. The other
end is the poor technical people who have to do something with
pagination in the reading system. When we had a discussion at
the NY meetup - we discussed having 'these and these' features
that should be in the CSS declarative style. We noted what is
missing and what we were trying to get. The reader should be
able to handle
pagination through a declaration."
...: "Now there is another side saying that some super-magic
should be doing this through houdini. Something that publishers
& authors should be using. We ended up by saying we are unsure
what line we need to be prepared for - and possibly both."
Chris: "I hear what you say let me try to address. Declarative
is the way it's going and where it will continue to go. Most
poly-fills use declarative syntax that isn't used them
implement. From authoring - no need to touch that stuff. you
should be able to get far without scripting. For an implementer
POV - which is extends a browser, there will be a need - as you
won't want each individual
item bringing in the polyfills - you want the browser to be a
'browser ++'"
Brady: "I think that is where we left it - that's the
conclusion in my head. Publishers should be using these CSS
specs in a declarative way - the reading system NEEDS to be
able to use these polyfills. As an implementer, I have to
struggle with adding the polyfills in a cross-browser way."
...: "Pagination is the most horrible thing that has ever
happened - there is multi-column that gets panned around. You
can do it by breaking up the DOM - as you have no idea where
things end, so you have to figure out where text ends... People
have done it with scrolling and putting a gap between pages.
None of them quite work - and you cannot do things on a
page-level. You can't do widows
and orphans well either with many of these concepts."
Tzviya: "Widow and orphan control and hyphenation are simple
things that are very important - and difficult without the
concept of a page."
ivan: "if this is the way it goes, then we as a group need to
accept that Houdini is there, and the implementors do the
polyfills. Then the question is - do we have everything in CSS
that the publishers need to make the declaratives?"
...: "Then we need to go back to the CSS working group to ask
for certain things to be declared."
Tzviya: "Alot of scholarly publishing uses PDF is because of
MATH - even though we have MathML and other things, it's either
difficult or NOT supported at all, and that's keeping the STEM
world away."
<pkra> same for education.
Ivan: "What is it that the CSS working group needs from us? To
have pagination on the priority list?"
<tzviya>
[13]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html
[13] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html
Chris: "There is a GAP analysis between what is specified and
what browsers ACTUALLY do. What is the level of implementation?
Also why - is there missing information?"
... "What is currently in use, what are the needs, and what
isn't yet specified. having clear requirements and adequate
detail - how it will be extended - how does it actually work -
because CSS has suffered from multiple inconsistent
implementations - we're trying to avoid doing that. Having
multiple pagination requirements will be an issue.
Demonstrating need with clarity and how it is
additive and not breaking the model would be a high priority."
Ivan: "Ok that makes sense"
<ChrisL> yes, one way forward is to triage the existing specs
and get agreements on which are the bad bits
Dave: "I agree with Chris. I think one thing we need to do is
that - there are alot of page related stuff in CSS specs. It's
widely varying quality and in some cases there are things that
have been that are described by the PDF formatters a long time
ago and don't represent the modern concesus of how CSS should
be designed. Even the CSS page-spec itself - and the margin
boxes. At some point
everyone needs to decide, do we go ahead with the older things
and try to patch them up. Do we burn the village and rebuild
with more modern concepts?"
Chris: "Figuring out what isn't implemented - because it's
rubbish - and removing that will help us see where we are
going."
Tzviya: "There are concerns & belief that this is used for
print... This is - in some pockets - used for print, but all of
our interests are beyond print. "
Chris: "The reason I raised that is that the CSS working group
looks at it as 'well, who prints web pages anyways' and the
common use cases - such as tabbed viewing, and apps that are
using slideshows - those tend to get brushed off."
Ivan: "This pretty much relates to the other issue - the
browser vendors - I see pagination as potentially pretty
interesting from a user-interface point of view on the web.
It's very long - then pagination as a find of user interface
structure is something I would really love to have. And I must
say that some of our own documents would benefit from such a
use-case. Is this discussed at all
by browsers? Do they see any argument about that at all?"
Chris: "They do tend to brush it away. This is a problem that
is also faced by accessibility - we want these for blind, color
blind. In the early days, they did the research and found that
the market was low - so browsers wouldn't implement. But, as
new information comes out, they realize that there are more
people who would benefit from such features - such as
accessibility. We want to have
cross-references so you can say 'page 28' but equally we want
to say 'section 5.3.2' if we solve one, we can solve the other
one. Then, what we need gets implemented."
Ivan: "In a sense - would it also help if the publishing
community put these kinds of arguments more explicilty the user
interface for pagination."
Chris: "yes. To some extent. Some needs to be explicit, and
some is a battle plan you don't tell them until they fall for
it."
<pkra> sliders?
Tzviya: "In the documents we're calling for - we should
declaritively state that it works for slides, flashcards,
cards, tiles."
...: "We should spell that out - so pagination isn't just for
'books'"
Tzviya: "Chris - do we need to clarify between CSS and Houdini
when writing this document?"
Chris: "I suggest not - see it as a continuum. Some things are
implemented, some are IN CSS but not implemented. Some can be
easily polyfilled, and some are hard/impossible to polyfill
without houdini."
<tzviya>
[14]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html
[14] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/priorities.html
Chris: "to clarify - the document is the wiki pages?"
Tzviya: "Nope - this is the text version of the CSS worksheet"
DavE: "this is evolving. I'm still fumbling a bit."
Tzviya: "Dave should get more help and input from others in the
group. "
<ChrisL> yes, I commit to helping with this
Tzviya: "We could use help determining implementation. We know
what we want, but we're not sure where things would happen.
There are a list of where specs exist. We could use help in
that section."
<ivan> ChrisL++
Chris: "I already committed to some GAP analysis on pagination
- so i'm already working on that. So I'll commit here, because
this will make the research a bit more public."
Tzviya: "OK."
... "Other comments? We have next-steps but I'll leave dave and
chris."
...: "Everyone clear on next steps?"
... "Deborah - I see you're here. We need to get note to PF
about ARIA Describe dat?"
describedAt
Deborah: "Ok - Should we call what I have 'final'? George sent
some comments and I incorporated what he suggested."
Tzviya: "Just send the final version around."
Deborah: "I'll do that this morning. This in particular is PF -
feels - uncomfortable - about the ARIA describedAT ARIA role in
that they don't think there is alot of buyin yet from
publishers to implement. Our note is an explanation of 'why we
think it is INCREDIBLY useful"
<ChrisL> (discussion of aria described-at and aria 1.1 vs 2.0
staging)
Tzviya: "The reason they are considering deprecating it is
because there is a new version. Deborah and Charles concluded -
with lots of input - that now is not a good time to deprecate
describedAT. They put together alot of examples of how it would
be useful. So, we have this draft of the note. If any publisher
in particular has strong feeling, they might as us as
publishers to come to a PF
meeting."
...: "If anyone wants to see the text get in touch wtih
deborah, charles, or I."
Deborah: "you can always conect me if you have suggestions or
questions"
Tzviya: "Anything else before we close it for today?"
Ivan: "Worth noting as a heads-up that the document that Tzviya
and Markus made with PF - the DPUB-ARIA document has gone
through all the necessary hurdles - it will be published
tomorrow! It has been accepted by Judy and michael is taking
care of it.
<Karen> +1 interpretation for publishing community
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
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[15] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[16] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
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Present: Dave_Cramer Tzviya_Siegman Bill_Kasdorf Chris_Lilley Toru_Kawak
ubo Ivan_Herman Tim_Cole duga Deborah_Kaplan Ben_De_Meester Peter Krautz
berger thierry david_stroup astearns Vlad Bert
Agenda: [18]http://www.w3.org/mid/b9986cf719ea4f3bafc2669f4a3ab2d0@CAR-W
NMBP-006.wiley.com
Found Date: 06 Jul 2015
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[18]
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[19] http://www.w3.org/2015/07/06-dpub-minutes.html
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Received on Monday, 6 July 2015 16:10:54 UTC