Re: FW: footnote element in HTML

David/all,

(New member here).  I realize my knowledge/scope of the issue is limited,
so take all I have to say with a grain of salt.  I've been a web developer,
educator, and tool developer for the past 15+ years.

I think that David's comments about having something simple are HUGE.
While we would hope (and the future will have this) that most documents
will be created with an editor like Word where the actual code is in the
background, there are still who will hand-code, especially in the days when
such features are first introduced.

having a <note> or <footnote>/<endnote> are extremely simple, but I would
want to make sure it has unique and non-overlapping functionality, because
it doesn't seem logical to have 2 different tags that are too similar (<b>
and <strong> anyone?  <i> and <em>?)

The issue really seems to be - is there a way that there can be a "simple"
way to make a footnote/endnote using Annotations?

Also - is there a way in specifications for a tag to be a shorthand?  For
example <nick> would be a shorthand notation for <span role='crazy_person'
class='male'>?  Is this something that would be considered, as that would
be a way to create a tag but not over-write a definition nor duplicate
functional, just solve a problem that is a heavy use-case.

-Nick

On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 4:19 PM, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <
tsiegman@wiley.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *Tzviya Siegman*
>
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
>
> Wiley
>
> 201-748-6884
>
> tsiegman@wiley.com
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 09, 2015 4:07 PM
> *To:* Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
> *Cc:* shane@aptest.com; DPUB mailing list (public-digipub-ig@w3.org)
> *Subject:* Re: footnote element in HTML
>
>
>
> Please forward this to the group...my email is not on the list
> apparently... thanks...
>
>
>
> I think I need to take a step back and speak of the motivation to
> introduce a <note> element. From the perspective of the circle I travel in,
> web accessibility, we were looking for an elegant accessible, easy solution
> for johnny lunchbox web developers in academic environments etc. to create
> accessible endnotes and footnotes on their web sites. Currently, this can
> be done with anchors, but it isn't. But it IS done in MS Word documents,
> for the simple reason that it is easy, dedicated, elegant and accessible.
>
>
>
> I'm afraid that kicking this over the fence to annotations is going to
> make it more complicated and obscure that it is in an anchor tag, and so
> this would be a big disappointment for people who are looking at this from
> the perspective I mention above.
>
>
>
> Perhaps the publishing industry would jump on a specific type of
> annotation, and use it, implement it and solve the problem in those
> environments. I have no expertise in publishing, but I assume developers in
> those environments won't be too much different from those I teach.... I'm
> guessing they largely ignore a new feature for annotations that requires
> them to bend there minds a bit and think about footnotes and endnotes as
> annotations.
>
>
>
> Like many of us, I've been around the standards world for quite a few
> years and I've seen many ideas that were quite theoretical fond there way
> into a standard, and not take root in actual practice, and I fear this
> direction would be one of them.
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
>
>
>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 3:20 PM, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <
> tsiegman@wiley.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Shane and David,
>
>
>
> We discussed the proposed HTML footnote element in today’s DPUB IG
> meeting. The primary question is that the Web Annotations WG is working on
> far more robust model to represent this sort of information [2].
>
>
>
> We’ve heard a lot of discussions of what a “footnote” is, but it certainly
> fits well within the definition of annotation:
>
> “An annotation is considered to be a set of connected resources,
> typically including a body and target, and conveys that the body is related
> to the target. The exact nature of this relationship changes according to
> the intention of the annotation, but most frequently conveys that the body
> is somehow "about" the target. Other possible relationships include that
> the body is an identifier for the target, provides a representation of the
> target, or classifies the target in some way. This perspective results in a
> basic model with three parts, depicted below. The full model supports
> additional functionality, enabling content to be embedded within the
> annotation, selecting arbitrary segments of resources, choosing the
> appropriate representation of a resource and providing styling hints for
> consuming clients. Annotations created by or intended for machines are also
> considered to be in scope, ensuring that the Data Web is not ignored in
> favor of only considering the human-oriented Document Web.” [3]
>
>
>
> Does HTML have a draft definition beyond the notes David assembled at
> [3]?  Why should HTML move forward with the addition of an element that
> accomplishes only a percentage of what the Annotations Data Model
> accomplishes?
>
>
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/
>
> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/#introduction
>
> [3] http://davidmacd.com/blog/html51-footnotes.html
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tzviya
>
>
>
>
>
> *Tzviya Siegman*
>
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
>
> Wiley
>
> 201-748-6884
>
> tsiegman@wiley.com
>
>
>
>
>



-- 
- Nick Ruffilo
@NickRuffilo
http://Aerbook.com
http://ZenOfTechnology.com <http://zenoftechnology.com/>