Re: FW: footnote element in HTML

David, all,

I'd just like to note that the comparison between a developer implementing
a <note> or annotation, and an end user creating a comment in MS Word, is
apples and oranges.  Given a good front end, the creation of annotations
should be as easy, dedicated, elegant and accessible as any office product.

To compare apples with apples -- clever office suite developers at
Microsoft (and Google, and ...) have implemented comments, footnotes and so
forth into WYSIWYG document editors. Clever annotation client developers
have done the same thing, without full control of the underlying system,
for web pages.

Could a "Johnny Lunchbox" developer implement the commenting feature in MS
Word? No, of course not.  What they could do is install a free, open source
javascript library that allows editors to make comments, and then customize
its look and feel as appropriate. With further effort they could integrate
it with their backend workflow system, likely with about the same amount of
effort as transforming whatever system would generate the <note> elements.

If there's any actual reason why you think annotations are unlikely to be
implemented or adopted, then that justification would be very much
appreciated so the situation can be avoided :)

Many thanks,

Rob


On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <
tsiegman@wiley.com> wrote:

>
>
>
>
> *Tzviya Siegman*
>
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
>
> Wiley
>
> 201-748-6884
>
> tsiegman@wiley.com
>
>
>
> *From:* David MacDonald [mailto:david100@sympatico.ca]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 09, 2015 4:07 PM
> *To:* Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken
> *Cc:* shane@aptest.com; DPUB mailing list (public-digipub-ig@w3.org)
> *Subject:* Re: footnote element in HTML
>
>
>
> Please forward this to the group...my email is not on the list
> apparently... thanks...
>
>
>
> I think I need to take a step back and speak of the motivation to
> introduce a <note> element. From the perspective of the circle I travel in,
> web accessibility, we were looking for an elegant accessible, easy solution
> for johnny lunchbox web developers in academic environments etc. to create
> accessible endnotes and footnotes on their web sites. Currently, this can
> be done with anchors, but it isn't. But it IS done in MS Word documents,
> for the simple reason that it is easy, dedicated, elegant and accessible.
>
>
>
> I'm afraid that kicking this over the fence to annotations is going to
> make it more complicated and obscure that it is in an anchor tag, and so
> this would be a big disappointment for people who are looking at this from
> the perspective I mention above.
>
>
>
> Perhaps the publishing industry would jump on a specific type of
> annotation, and use it, implement it and solve the problem in those
> environments. I have no expertise in publishing, but I assume developers in
> those environments won't be too much different from those I teach.... I'm
> guessing they largely ignore a new feature for annotations that requires
> them to bend there minds a bit and think about footnotes and endnotes as
> annotations.
>
>
>
> Like many of us, I've been around the standards world for quite a few
> years and I've seen many ideas that were quite theoretical fond there way
> into a standard, and not take root in actual practice, and I fear this
> direction would be one of them.
>
>
>
>
> Cheers,
>
> David MacDonald
>
>
>
> *CanAdapt* *Solutions Inc.*
>
> Tel:  613.235.4902
>
> LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>
>
> www.Can-Adapt.com
>
>
>
> *  Adapting the web to all users*
>
> *            Including those with disabilities*
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>
> If you are not the intended recipient, please review our privacy policy
> <http://www.davidmacd.com/disclaimer.html>
>
>
>
> On Mon, Feb 9, 2015 at 3:20 PM, Siegman, Tzviya - Hoboken <
> tsiegman@wiley.com> wrote:
>
> Hi Shane and David,
>
>
>
> We discussed the proposed HTML footnote element in today’s DPUB IG
> meeting. The primary question is that the Web Annotations WG is working on
> far more robust model to represent this sort of information [2].
>
>
>
> We’ve heard a lot of discussions of what a “footnote” is, but it certainly
> fits well within the definition of annotation:
>
> “An annotation is considered to be a set of connected resources,
> typically including a body and target, and conveys that the body is related
> to the target. The exact nature of this relationship changes according to
> the intention of the annotation, but most frequently conveys that the body
> is somehow "about" the target. Other possible relationships include that
> the body is an identifier for the target, provides a representation of the
> target, or classifies the target in some way. This perspective results in a
> basic model with three parts, depicted below. The full model supports
> additional functionality, enabling content to be embedded within the
> annotation, selecting arbitrary segments of resources, choosing the
> appropriate representation of a resource and providing styling hints for
> consuming clients. Annotations created by or intended for machines are also
> considered to be in scope, ensuring that the Data Web is not ignored in
> favor of only considering the human-oriented Document Web.” [3]
>
>
>
> Does HTML have a draft definition beyond the notes David assembled at
> [3]?  Why should HTML move forward with the addition of an element that
> accomplishes only a percentage of what the Annotations Data Model
> accomplishes?
>
>
>
> [1] http://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/
>
> [2] http://www.w3.org/TR/annotation-model/#introduction
>
> [3] http://davidmacd.com/blog/html51-footnotes.html
>
>
>
> Thanks,
>
> Tzviya
>
>
>
>
>
> *Tzviya Siegman*
>
> Digital Book Standards & Capabilities Lead
>
> Wiley
>
> 201-748-6884
>
> tsiegman@wiley.com
>
>
>
>
>



-- 
Rob Sanderson
Information Standards Advocate
Digital Library Systems and Services
Stanford, CA 94305