Fwd: Footnote discussions

David says his emails are bouncing from the list.  No idea why.  Here is
his latest.

---------- Forwarded message ----------
From: David MacDonald <david100@sympatico.ca>
Date: Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 3:22 PM
Subject: Re: Footnote discussions
To: Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
Cc: Dave Cramer <dauwhe@gmail.com>, Liam R E Quin <liam@w3.org>, George
Kerscher <kerscher@montana.com>, "public-digipub-ig@w3.org" <
public-digipub-ig@w3.org>, "shane@aptest.com" <shane@aptest.com>, "
matt.garrish@bell.net" <matt.garrish@bell.net>


Agree that the language should be <note> rather than footnote, which is the
proposal to HTML5.

My thinking is that it would be an automatic 2 way link, and  therefore
would not have to be embedded in the paragraph.
http://davidmacd.com/blog/html51-footnotes.html

   - Hyperlink to the note from the ref point in document, and a default
   option to return to the point of reference
   - If there is more than one point of reference, the returning link would
   return to the point from where it was accessed.
   - Hyperlinks back to reference can be turned off with an attribute
   setting if there are multiple links to it in the doc.
   - *Speculative feature*: an attribute that allows the footnote to open
   in-line like the summary and details element right on the page where the
   reference to it is found.
   - WAI-ARIA could provide new region roles for role="footnotes" and
   role="endnotes".





Cheers,

David MacDonald



*Can**Adapt* *Solutions Inc.*

Tel:  613.235.4902

LinkedIn <http://www.linkedin.com/in/davidmacdonald100>

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On Mon, Feb 2, 2015 at 2:42 PM, Bill Kasdorf <bkasdorf@apexcovantage.com>
wrote:

>  Replying to a post from Dave earlier today.
>
>
>
> Re: " This leads to content model problems, as often footnotes may have
> sectioning or block elements inside them (like blockquote, div, etc.) which
> are not valid inside paragraphs."
>
>
>
> Bingo. I cannot think of a model we've developed for a client that does
> not have this requirement. Most have to accommodate complex content within
> footnotes, like <blockquote>s, lists, equations, or just simply multiple
> paragraphs.
>
>
>
> Our typical strategy is to use this markup for the footnote itself:
>
>
>
> <aside class="footnote" id="[id]"><span class="footnote-no"><a href="#[id
> of footnote reference marker]">[marker]</a></span> [content of
> footnote]</aside>
>
>
>
> . . . which is typically placed after the end of the block element that
> contains the callout (because we can't put it in a <p>),
>
>
>
> . . . and embed an expression like this in the text where the "callout"
> occurs (somewhat bulky, but it works):
>
>
>
> <span class="footnote-marker" id="[id]"><a class="fn-ref"
> epub:type="noteref" href="#[id of footnote]">[marker]</a></span>
>
>
>
> That provides the bi-directional linking and the ability to accommodate
> complex content in the footnote itself. Multiple references to the same
> note are possible but create difficulties in determining which of them to
> return to. But this is sufficient for the overwhelming majority of cases in
> our work where there is a one-to-one relationship between the callout
> ("marker," "reference") and the note itself. This is probably not robust
> enough, though, for a true W3C HTML5 solution, where the multiple-callout
> case would need to be accommodated.
>
>
>
> The keys are the need for a "marker" (asterisk, superior number, whatever)
> and a "note": too often both of those things are referred to as "the
> footnote," which is Not A Good Idea.
>
>
>
> A more streamlined and inherently semantic markup for all that would be
> welcome!
>
>
>
> --Bill Kasdorf
>
>
>
>
>
> *From:* Dave Cramer [mailto:dauwhe@gmail.com]
> *Sent:* Monday, February 02, 2015 10:32 AM
> *To:* Liam R E Quin
> *Cc:* Bill Kasdorf; George Kerscher; public-digipub-ig@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Footnote discussions
>
>
>
> How the markup should look is an interesting question. Lots of "classic"
> XML/SGML vocabularies have a footnote element that essentially serves as
> both marker and reference:
>
>
>
> <para>Call me Ishmael.<footnote><para>This is a
> footnote</para></footnote></para>
>
>
>
> When rendered, the footnote element is moved somewhere, and a reference
> left in its place.
>
>
>
> The PDF formatters Prince and AntennaHouse can do something similar today
> with HTML footnotes:
>
>
>
> <p>Call me Ishmael.<span class="footnote">This is a footnote</span></p>
>
>
>
> They use CSS to move the footnote and generate the references using CSS
> counters and some non-standard pseudo-elements:
>
>
>
> span.footnote { float: footnote }
>
> span.footnote::footnote-call { content: counter(footnote); vertical-align:
> super; }
>
> span.footnote::footnote-marker { content: counter(footnote) '. '; }
>
>
>
> This leads to content model problems, as often footnotes may have
> sectioning or block elements inside them (like blockquote, div, etc.) which
> are not valid inside paragraphs.
>
>
>
> We've also run into problems with implementing footnotes using CSS
> regions. It's easy enough to move the footnote element somewhere else, but
> CSS has not defined ways of leaving markers behind to serve as the callout.
>
>
>
> Separating the note and the reference has its own issues, as you have to
> essentially create all the links yourself, and it seems a bit arbitrary
> where to put the note content itself.
>
>
>
> I'd lean towards having a note element that could be embedded at the point
> of reference, with a rather expansive content model. A noteref element
> would be optional, for the case where there are multiple references to the
> same note. But CSS would need to address the issue of leaving a reference
> when the note element was moved to somewhere else in the document. Such a
> pseudo-element (one possible proposal) would be more generally useful, with
> sidebars, images, and other such content.
>
>
>
> Dave
>
>
>
>
>
>
>




-- 
Shane McCarron
Managing Director, Applied Testing and Technology, Inc.