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[Minutes] 2014-11-24 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 24 Nov 2014 19:44:16 +0100
Message-ID: <54737C80.1020200@w3.org>
To: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>

Hi all,

The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference 
dated 2014-11-24 are now available at

     http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-minutes.html

These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
     http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.

Best,

Thierry Michel

----------------------------

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

             Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

24 Nov 2014

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Nov/0084.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/11/24-dpub-irc

Attendees

    Present
           Tzviya Siegman (tzviya), Dave Cramer (dauwhe), Charles
           LaPierre (clapierre), Brady Duga (duga), Mike Miller
           (MikeMiller), Shinyu Murakami (murakami) , Karen Myers
           (Karen_Myers), Vladimir Levantovsky (Vlad), Ayla Stein
           (astein), Markus Gylling (Markus), Deborah Kaplan
           (dkaplan3), Bert Bos (Bert), Bill Kasdorf
           (Bill_Kasdorf),  Peter Kreutzberger (pkra),  Ivan Herman
           (Ivan),  Ben De Meester (bjdmeest), Thierry Michel
           (tmichel), David Stroup (david_stroup), Tim Cole
           (TimCole),  Frederick Hirsch (fjh), Alan Stearns
           (Stearns).

    Regrets
           Phil Madans, Laura Fowler, Julie Morris , Liza Daly, Rob
           Sanderson, Madi_Solomon, Susann_Keohane.

    Chair
           Markus Gylling

    Scribe
           Peter Kreutzberger

Contents

      * [4]Topics
      * [5]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 24 November 2014

    <AH_Miller> For those who know Tony Graham, he now works for
    Antenna House

    mgylling approve last week's minutes.

    <ivan> scribenick: pkra

    scribe: no objections. minutes are approved.
    ... two topics: 1) Pagination & APIs (brad_duga)
    ... see link in agenda to wiki page

    <bjdmeest>
    [6]https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Pagination_Requirements

       [6] https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Pagination_Requirements

    <ivan> [7]Brady's list

       [7] https://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Pagination_Requirements

    scribe: figure out where we're going and what's needed to
    finish

    <david_stroup> I'm 585.217

    scribe: 2) latinrec, dauwhe about pagination
    ... etc.

    brady_duga my attempt at outlining the issues a reading systems
    might have trying to implement on top of browser engine.

    scribe: these are those I've heard, seen discussions on
    ... not representative.
    ... some empty sections.
    ... need more fleshing out, outlines, diagrams etc.
    ... would like to see other implementors to add, object,
    correct.
    ... after feedback I'd like to go back and fill in details.

    dauwhe reminds me of interest for the IG. Quite a few of these
    requirements are aobut allowing the reader to change the
    aspects of renderin.

    scribe: one of *the* continuing challenges for ebook reading
    system since the early days.

    <ivan> +1 to dave

    scribe: should the IG look into this more
    generally/specifically?
    ... allowing user control over presentation .
    ... user style sheets prove not powerful enough

    brady_duga for the general populace is interested in this for
    ebooks but less so for general websites.

    scribe: in particular for a11y
    ... Definitely an important area.
    ... I tried to stay away from solutions, how to address these
    isssues as there usually are several directions for that.

    astearns thanks for this helpful document!

    scribe: re section "segmenting content". Is this for partial
    layout (from certain page on) or something else?

    brady_duga: mostly memory. not loading everyhting on devices
    with small memory.
    ... e.g., King James bible
    ... but also load for chapter.

    asterans for pagination has several ways. Lack of css regions;
    there are good polyfills.

    brady_duga yes, css regions shouldbe added.

    scribe: for overflow scroll. Are people using this? Do browsers
    have this?

    dauwhe: didn't opera/presto do it?

    brady_duga: right.

    <Bert> (there was a special version of Opera available at some
    point. I still use it every once in a while :-) )

    brady_duga I will add overflow scroll not widely implemented
    and section on css regions.

    tzviya a) personalization tools for ebooks are common to
    websites as well (e.g., font size)

    scribe: relative report: the discovery of changing font size on
    newspaper homepage can mean the world.

    <Bert> (Actually, I think the last Presto-based version of
    Opera has it, with an -o- prefix.)

    brady_duga Yes, should be added. Others (Night-mode etc.) is
    less common.

    mgylling Q: does it belong in this document?

    scribe: is this specific to paginated media?

    brady_duga: yes, this branched out to more problems of
    implementing reading system on top of browser

    tzviya another one: citations / stable reference could be
    mentioned in this context

    astearns user customization is more general issue but crucial
    in paginated views as it affects reflow / relayout has to be
    maintained.

    brady_duga: in particular, page numbers can end up completely
    wrong after customization.

    Bill_K: a) on personalization. in the ebook context, it tends
    to be done globally, not so much per document. This might be a
    difference compared to the web.

    brady_duga: good point. However, e.g., font size might want to
    change depending on the book and its design.

    Bill_K: right. Also context. On a treadmill, I'll increase font
    size.
    ... in scholarly context, another segmentation use case is
    keeping a particular piece of content fixed while scrolling
    through content.

    brady_duga: I'll add that.

    mgylling: brady_duga you asked for feedback from implementors.
    How do we gather this once the document is a bit more complete.

    brady_duga: If people could take it back to their respective
    organizations. If you know an implementor, please hook us up.
    ... Readium, Apple, Adobe.

    <Bill_Kasdorf> I'm hearing a lot of echo and feedback

    brady_duga: if they're on the group, that'd be good.

    Ivan: Apple is on, but time zone Canberra => difficult.

    mgylling: should we start immediately or do you want to give it
    another pass first?

    brady_duga: let's say 2 weeks until outreach (given it's
    Thanksgiving week)

    mgylling: what are thoughts on the personalization in this
    document?

    dkaplan it's fine in there. accessibility is one part of
    personalization. But treadmill example shows it's wider.

    scribe: but we should talk to each other since a11y is
    critical.

    (thx)

    clapierre: agreed. Benetech is interested in both.

    brady_duga: I'll do another pass, then reach out to the usual
    suspects. Does this need to be respec?

    <dauwhe>
    [8]http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/#the-spatial-geometry-o
    f-pages-spreads-and-bleeds

       [8] 
http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/#the-spatial-geometry-of-pages-spreads-and-bleeds

    Ivan: let me know when you're at that point.

    mgylling: moving on.

    dauwhe: at last F2F I've added a section to latinrec about
    spatial geometry of pages (spreads, bleeds etc)
    ... just some basics (crossing the gutter, orientations, sizes,
    objects bleeding off the page etc)
    ... would like more examples on usual things in this area.
    ... in particular, pages of different orientation (e.g., table)
    ... what are the other circumstances we need to document?
    ... going back to the mothership jlreq.
    ... looking for examples: how running heads are positioned;
    what content appears (has come up on www-style again.
    ... in particular, special content (dates, filenames, stored
    inattributes, that needs processing)
    ...

    (thx)

    scribe: want to display machine readable content in human
    readable form.
    ... this needs some publishing use cases.

    Bill_K: the difference between generated and literal text.
    often programmatic (Ch.Sec etc). In most books the text is too
    long, so publishers provide short forms so sometimes you need
    to access the shortened version, sometimes the actual content .

    dauwhe: yes, I will add it.
    ... another issue unique to pagination: continued lines.
    ... can of worms but needs documenting.
    ... e.g. tables are split, headers are repeated, what gets
    copied from page to page, what isn't

    Bill_K: another one is footnotes.

    dauwhe: I'd be interested in examples.

    Bill_K: important in legal

    dauwhe: could you send a screenshot?

    mgylling: tzviya might help.

    Ivan: purely technical: the way you described the bleed seems
    bound to printed books?
    ... how is this relevant to digital publishing?

    dauwhe: in general, relevant for digital publishing as we need
    to extend objects to the edge of the viewable area.
    ... this has held back higher-design ebooks since reading
    systems that add borders etc.
    ... also, latinrec is documenting print practices.

    Ivan: the use case in this document is related to large piece
    of paper that is folded and cut.
    ... a use case for digital books would make sense.

    Bill_K: the going past the page is a relict of print. You don't
    want to go over the edge but to the edge.

    brady_duga: about bleeds. We have had some use cases where we
    had wanted bleeds.

    tzviya: beyond diagrams, it might help the doc to describe
    things we can't actually do in digital.

    <astearns> allowing content to extend past a scroll boundary is
    the digital equivalent of a bleed

    tzviya: crossing the gutter we can't actually do in CSS.
    ... for bleed, we could have a diagram showing a table
    rendering
    ... with others we should point out it's not possible.

    dauwhe: impossible examples are especially welcome
    ... will create mockups from tzviya's (coyprighted) examples

    mgylling: any other examples we missed?

    dauwhe: another huge area of examples (not books): office
    documents.

    tzivya: will provide you with turned tables.

    mgylling: ch4 will be expanded.
    ... @dauwhe is it complete?

    dauwhe: it should be sufficient.
    ... another item from Santa Clara F2F, paginated digital
    environment might need different metaphor for arranging pages.
    ... ebook readers you often swipe in
    ... but in othersituations page might be below.
    ... discuss how pages are arranged.

    mgylling: make sure a spread can be more than 2.
    ... make clear it's unbounded.

    dauwhe: yes. Examples would be very valuable.

    mgylling: next steps?
    ... when should we follow up?

    dauwhe: mid-December sounds good.

    <tzviya> +1

    <astearns> +1

    mgylling: Ivan and I are publishing the whitepaper we
    discussed.
    ... not perfect timing this week.
    ... but more outreach later.

    Bill_K: can this be referenced public(talks)?

    mgylling: yes.

    dauwhe: re alignment between DPUB and epub-next.
    ... correction: IG, not WG.
    ... would be useful to focus on various aspects of epub-next.

    mgylling: idea is if there's support for it from various
    stakeholders, then it's likely that the IG work will change a
    lot.
    ... one of those would relate to styling and layout.
    ... more bi-directional exchange.

    Ivan: the document is on GitHub.
    ... community will (hopefully) give us comments, use issue
    tracker.
    ... iterate on the document
    ... and obviously DPUB is critical group of ppl for this.

    brady_duga: did we settle on a day for next F2F?

    tzviya: May 26, before IDPF conf at BEA at new Hachette
    offices, NYC.

    dkaplan: is new antenna house memeber (Tony Graham) on the call
    today?

    Tony Graham no but will hopefully join.

    np

    <tzviya> s/???/tony graham

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


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