- From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
- Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 18:40:21 +0200
- To: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Hi all,
The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
dated 2014-06-16 are now available at
http://www.w3.org/2014/06/16-dpub-minutes.html
These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.
Best,
Thierry Michel
----------------------------
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
16 Jun 2014
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Jun/0031.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2014/06/16-dpub-irc
Attendees
Present: David Stroup (david_stroup), Brady Duga (duga), Ben Ko
(benjaminsko), Tim Cole (TimCole), Frederick Hirsch
(fjh), Phil Madans (philm), Shinyu Murakami (murakami),
Gerardo Capiel (gcapiel), Rob Sanderson (azaroth),
Thierry Michel (tmichel), Markus Gylling (mgylling),
Deborah Kaplan (dkaplan3), Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf),
Alan Stearns (astearns), Luc Audrain (Luc), Vladimir
Levandovsky (Vlad), Julie Morris (julie), Peter
Kreutzberger (pkra), Ivan Herman (ivan), Liam Quin
(Liam), Dave Cramer (dauwhe),Clapierre (clapierre2),
Peter Lins (plinss)
Regrets: none
Chair: Markus Gylling (mgylling)
Scribe: Ben Ko (benjaminsko)
Contents
* [4]Topics
* [5]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 16 June 2014
<pkra1> I'm 617-858.aadd
<pkra1> ah, I have a bad nick.
<ivan> scribenick: benjaminsko
mgylling: minutes approved
... Main Topic: update on latinReq draft status from dave,
Proposed changes to task force names,
... Peter to cover scope, what's in and out of scope for our
work here
<pkra> thanks.
clapierre2: returning employee at benatech. interested in
accessibility and metadata for epublishing.
<azaroth> gcapiel: Best of luck in your new position! You'll be
very much missed
<Bill_Kasdorf> you will be missed, Gerardo!
dauwhe: MAIN TOPIC: want to first talk about what's going in
CSS working group that dpub is interested in
<dauwhe> [6]http://dauwhe.tumblr.com/
[6] http://dauwhe.tumblr.com/
<gcapiel> Thanks! It's been an amazing experience collaborating
with you all.
dauwhe: earlier identified two priority areas-drop cap and
footnote. esp with drop caps, there has been intense action in
CSS working group. Drop caps on web and in ebooks are broken. i
created a tumblr showing how broken they are
... cant be relied on to maintain as font size changes. this is
an area that the web should be able to do these correctly. it
turns out there was a proposal in the CSS line layout module in
2002. (have theory that everything already exists in an
abandoned CSS draft)
... there was a misunderstanding in their model and examples.
brought this up in a CSS conf call. some expressed interest in
working on this--how text sits in boxes, inline
processing...added as a co-editor to the spec specifically to
work on drop caps
... added to agenda for face to face meeting in Korea. gave
presentation, which led to a really good discussion that lasted
close to 90 minutes that everyone in room was interested in
(including google, mozilla). this is something that would be
relatively easy to implement
<dauwhe>
[7]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0108.h
tml
[7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0108.html
<dauwhe> [8]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/#DropInitial
[8] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/#DropInitial
dauwhe: based on results of that discussion, dave wrote up a
new proposal for CSS dropcaps, which is now in an updated
editor's draft. much simpler than what was there before, but is
more powerful than what is in indesign (which adobe team found
amusing)
... at this point we have a skeleton of a workable proposal.
lot of work to be done esp in internalization. how does this
work for arabic, japanese, etc. when flying back from korea,
couldnt find any examples, so perhaps not an issue in all
languages..
... optimistic that someone is going to want to implement this
so that it will trickle down to the epub reading systems that
are based on web rendering engines
... i think we're in a good place with this one
mgylling: Questions?
dauwhe: this is a good example of how things work with CSS.
when we have a clearly identified problem, it becomes a matter
of doing the research and writing on the spec. advocacy and
diplomatic work that this is important and will solve problems
for lots of web users
<astearns> identifying a minimal first step towards a full
solution is also extremely helpful
<mgylling> [9]http://dauwhe.github.io/dropcaps/Overview.html,
[10]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/#DropInitial
[9] http://dauwhe.github.io/dropcaps/Overview.html
[10] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/#DropInitial
mgylling: googling, found linelayout module and inline layout
that seemed to have the same section about dropcaps...
dauwhe: one was where i was sketching things out before i
entered it in the editors' draft
... the latter link is the correct one
Bill_Kasdorf: bravo to dave, wonderful work, thanks so much
... can drop cap issue be resolved without being tied up
w/resolution of a bunch of other CSS issues? is there a
timeline?
dauwhe: what matters is implementation, getting people
interested in implementing
... there are people with the ability to drive implementation
who are interested in this. i don
... i think this is something that will move forward
... will it be split out or remain part of line layout? for now
it will be left as part of line layout. i dont see a problem
with it not being split out.
... i don't see there being an implementation issue with
regards to rest of the line layout spec
pkra: any chance of ...polyfill
dauwhe: someone is working on that now
<astearns> I have a person on my team at Adobe investigating a
polyfill - no promises, though
pkra: things like polyfill and mathml could help us enormously
dauwhe: with some lobbying the line layout is now a high
priority for the CSS working group
mgylling: the editor's draft is there, someone working on a
polyfill, browser vendors are interested. is there anything
that the IG can do to help you out?
dauwhe: no
... the most valuable thing in the world is attention from
interested people, any sort of attention or comments to
www-style are really helpful
... if you happen to work for browser companies, lobbying is
appreciated too
mgylling: test cases?
dauwhe: haven't thought about that yet. we're in editor's draft
stage, still trying to sort out what the features are. once
that settles down we'll be thinking about test cases
mgylling: alan?
astearns: in terms of helping out, if you use ibooks or has
ibookss contacts, lobbying there will help convince webkit to
implement more quickly
dauwhe: exactly
... other high priority was footnotes. status is murkier.
antenna house and prince support footnotes with similar syntax.
CSS module for paged content discusses footnotes, but there
really hasn't been much support for those concepts in wider
world
... they require a lot of magic to drive without identifying a
fundamental mechanism...they dont feel a part of the open web
platform as it exists today. and so, want to find the visual
effects we want based on tools that are being created for
modern CSS
<pbelfanti> Apologies, I must drop for another meeting
dauwhe: esp the idea of regions. you can take some content and
flow it into a region and you can style that region. was
wondering if we can get a more robust definition of footnotes
if we can base it on regions. was playing around with this,
wrote up some sample syntax. discussed it ast the face to face
meeting at Seoul.
... using ideas from regions and various page template
proposals, addresses what we want but more firmly grounded in
CSS as it is evolving today
... result of discussions. start a level 4 of the GCM spec.
this will serve as an experimental draft to see if we can work
out a good def. of footnotes based on regions and other
template ideas. it hasn't been created yet. will be co-editor.
daniel g? is also co-editor.
... will give us better definition for running headers and
footers, greater flexibility and power. planning to start
working on that soon.
... that's footnotes
Luc: agree w/dave about footnotes. kind of item we need to
define more conceptually.
... in digital we can render it differently, need to define the
item it via semantics vs rendering structure. footnote is
complementary content. way it can be rendered can have
different actions from print.
dauwhe: i would agree with that. a footnote is a particular
visual rendition of a certain kind of semantic content. being
able to do this with CSS because with media queries or print
style sheet and allows you to treat print and digital
differntly
... my goal is we want to have this display option as one of
our choices, but it is not the onlt choice.
Bill_Kasdorf: my comments are along the same line. could this
also apply to marginal notes? key is to get rid of concept of
"foot"
<Luc> +1
dauwhe: nice thing with footnotes as regions is you get
sidenotes for free
you can have multiple footnote areas, you get sidenotes, in
what seems to be a natural way
ivan: footnotes are close to annotation. need way to avoid too
many parallel discussions. we already have use cases defined
for annotations. may be useful to review annotation with a
footnote glass on yr nose (?)
... we are at point where in a few weeks the charter for the
annotation working group will go to AC. work will begin in
earnest
<fjh> +1 to considering annotations; CSS also relevant so a bit
to coordinate
ivan: try to bind things together for synergy
dauwhe: that's a good idea. i will look to see how this fits
w/the proposed annotations.
ivan: the two proposed co-chairs are on the call right now
azaroth: happy to answer questions
dauwhe: what's come up today - can this concept be useful
annotations - is useful.
ivan: is it still useful to think about footnote-specific use
cases? publishers know the footnote use cases the best. is
there still a possibility to chase for more of those
dauwhe: that leads to something that is happening with
footnotes and dropcaps, there is tension between creating a
feature that can address every possible use case and a feature
that is relatively easy to specify and implement
... being getting lots of examples of dropcaps from books that
are hundreds of years old, something that is woven in to the
entire page. i love seeing them, i don't think we can implement
a spec that can support everything that was done in the last
800 years [did i get his right -ben]
... we aim for 80-90% not 99.9%
<astearns> perhaps even 60%, as long as what we expose can be
extended to another 20-40%
mgylling: with 15 minutes to go what else do you have for us?
dauwhe: trying to find out what our are priorities as far as
layout goes, where can we put effort and get the greatest
payback. would love to hear are there 1 or 2 other areas that
we should focus on to try and get something going
mgylling: anyone?
dauwhe: at the idpf convention ran into will mannis(sp?), had
problems with inline module of CSS. he was doing some work to
get PDFs into ebook form and the baseline handling of CSS was
preventing him from doing what he wanted
mgylling: keep this question open for awhile. it's obviously an
excellent strategy to identify the highest priority and go for
them. question about the latin req document. how does that
evolve now in relation to yr other activities?
dauwhe: latin req doc has certainly taken a back seat to the
work going on in CSS.
... can move stuff back into latin req based on some examples
and illustrations created for CSS working group
... if the group can identify priority areas in latin req, we
can. looking at it as a whole is overwhelming. in practice,
adding to it has been difficult since there are not a lot of
other people working on it right now
<Bill_Kasdorf> +1 on running headers and footers
Luc: re:priorities in latin req. after drop cap and footnotes,
question of running headers and footers because when we use ???
we had difficult question of large books that are ??? couldn't
be read..
... we re facing this problem...dictionaries, large volumes of
very precise information.... would like this to be examined for
the future [i wasn't able to capture the exact nature of the
prob - ben]
Bill_Kasdorf: being able to maintain header and footer around
long sections is very useful
<Luc> without running headers and footers, large books cannot
be made avalaible in EPUB
dauwhe: it's a navigation aid in keeping yr bearings in a vast
expanse. from phonebooks to indexes that have headers showing
... highly evolved solutions that came up through print, the
need for them has been shown, how do we meet that same need in
a digital environment
mgylling: running headers and footers might be addressed by the
footnote work
dauwhe: we're talking about content that is being copied
elsewhere in the document to serve as a visual marker
... it gets awkwards as the content of running heads gets more
complex. or as you want to display that content in an unusual
palce
mgylling: is chapter 8 solid enough to be reference for CSS
working group?
dauwhe: not sure what state is in right now
mgylling: chapter 8 could be another focus area
... ...return in 2 weeks to discuss this. some of the others
may come from the STEM area. we deviate a bit from the agenda
re:task force names to talk about STEM. Peter to discuss.
pkra: my question what is scope of the interest group.
progressive enhancements (responsive tables), user agent
suggestions, and new standards (e.g., scientific notation)
... maybe this is off the mark because i am new to this so
looking for input
mgylling: so is your question is "are new standards out of
scope?
pkra: yes
is it out of scope to pick new standards (e.g., chemml) as
winners to move to w3c?
mgylling: to me the answer is not out of scope, charter of
working group is to identify needs of the publishing community.
we can have luxury during use case definition to not worry
about difficulty of use case.
... if the scientific pub community that cannot be met by
existing specs of open web platform, then we should document
that fallacy(?).
... do not hold back in terms of this stuff. we are not
proposing solutions in this IG. we are only providing use cases
and motivations for forthcoming solutions. ivan?
ivan: fully agree
... if we identeify as specific area--e.g., chemical
markup--and we think ahead to see if this can be standardized,
we not only name the standard but give an idea about the size
the importance of the market, the main players as much as we
can
... fully agree with markus. one other thing i was wondering
about--this came up in the past--some of STEM's problems (e.g.,
chemistry)--i've heard that components at W3C may be a good
general solution.
... don't know if that is true or not. we should look at how
the web components evolved....last question is--mathml is
defined to be k12 but was not meant to be the tool for
theoretical physicists.
... isn't it also true that use cases may reveal holes in the
existing standards
<gcapiel> +q
pkra: i'd say it is the opposite (from implementation). problem
is parts of the mathml specification there are no way to
implement [?]
<Bill_Kasdorf> K-12 math wasn't introduced in MathML until
MathML 3.0. It was originally for the mathematicians and
scientists
<Julie> I have to sign off now-- thanks for the meeting!
gcapiel: as to missing use cases, presentation matjml which is
what is being used on the web, there are a lot of missing
semantics to make it more usable from an accessiiblity
standpoint
... gap between prsentation mathml nd content mathml
mgylling: at next call start with STEM discussion sorry too
short today
... talk next monday
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
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Received on Monday, 16 June 2014 16:40:50 UTC