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[Minutes] 2014-06-16 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 16 Jun 2014 18:40:21 +0200
Message-ID: <539F1DF5.8090904@w3.org>
To: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Hi all,

The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference 
dated 2014-06-16 are now available at


These public minutes are also linked  from the dpub wiki

Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.


Thierry Michel



       [1] http://www.w3.org/

             Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

16 Jun 2014



    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/06/16-dpub-irc


    Present: David Stroup (david_stroup), Brady Duga (duga), Ben Ko
           (benjaminsko), Tim Cole (TimCole), Frederick Hirsch
           (fjh), Phil Madans (philm),  Shinyu Murakami (murakami),
           Gerardo Capiel (gcapiel), Rob Sanderson (azaroth),
           Thierry Michel (tmichel), Markus Gylling (mgylling),
           Deborah Kaplan (dkaplan3), Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf),
           Alan Stearns (astearns), Luc Audrain (Luc), Vladimir
           Levandovsky (Vlad), Julie Morris (julie), Peter
           Kreutzberger (pkra), Ivan Herman (ivan), Liam Quin
           (Liam), Dave Cramer (dauwhe),Clapierre (clapierre2),
           Peter Lins (plinss)

    Regrets: none
    Chair: Markus Gylling (mgylling)
    Scribe: Ben Ko (benjaminsko)


      * [4]Topics
      * [5]Summary of Action Items

    <trackbot> Date: 16 June 2014

    <pkra1> I'm 617-858.aadd

    <pkra1> ah, I have a bad nick.

    <ivan> scribenick: benjaminsko

    mgylling: minutes approved
    ... Main Topic: update on latinReq draft status from dave,
    Proposed changes to task force names,
    ... Peter to cover scope, what's in and out of scope for our
    work here

    <pkra> thanks.

    clapierre2: returning employee at benatech. interested in
    accessibility and metadata for epublishing.

    <azaroth> gcapiel: Best of luck in your new position! You'll be
    very much missed

    <Bill_Kasdorf> you will be missed, Gerardo!

    dauwhe: MAIN TOPIC: want to first talk about what's going in
    CSS working group that dpub is interested in

    <dauwhe> [6]http://dauwhe.tumblr.com/

       [6] http://dauwhe.tumblr.com/

    <gcapiel> Thanks! It's been an amazing experience collaborating
    with you all.

    dauwhe: earlier identified two priority areas-drop cap and
    footnote. esp with drop caps, there has been intense action in
    CSS working group. Drop caps on web and in ebooks are broken. i
    created a tumblr showing how broken they are
    ... cant be relied on to maintain as font size changes. this is
    an area that the web should be able to do these correctly. it
    turns out there was a proposal in the CSS line layout module in
    2002. (have theory that everything already exists in an
    abandoned CSS draft)
    ... there was a misunderstanding in their model and examples.
    brought this up in a CSS conf call. some expressed interest in
    working on this--how text sits in boxes, inline
    processing...added as a co-editor to the spec specifically to
    work on drop caps
    ... added to agenda for face to face meeting in Korea. gave
    presentation, which led to a really good discussion that lasted
    close to 90 minutes that everyone in room was interested in
    (including google, mozilla). this is something that would be
    relatively easy to implement


       [7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-style/2014Jun/0108.html

    <dauwhe> [8]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/#DropInitial

       [8] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/#DropInitial

    dauwhe: based on results of that discussion, dave wrote up a
    new proposal for CSS dropcaps, which is now in an updated
    editor's draft. much simpler than what was there before, but is
    more powerful than what is in indesign (which adobe team found
    ... at this point we have a skeleton of a workable proposal.
    lot of work to be done esp in internalization. how does this
    work for arabic, japanese, etc. when flying back from korea,
    couldnt find any examples, so perhaps not an issue in all
    ... optimistic that someone is going to want to implement this
    so that it will trickle down to the epub reading systems that
    are based on web rendering engines
    ... i think we're in a good place with this one

    mgylling: Questions?

    dauwhe: this is a good example of how things work with CSS.
    when we have a clearly identified problem, it becomes a matter
    of doing the research and writing on the spec. advocacy and
    diplomatic work that this is important and will solve problems
    for lots of web users

    <astearns> identifying a minimal first step towards a full
    solution is also extremely helpful

    <mgylling> [9]http://dauwhe.github.io/dropcaps/Overview.html,

       [9] http://dauwhe.github.io/dropcaps/Overview.html
      [10] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-inline/#DropInitial

    mgylling: googling, found linelayout module and inline layout
    that seemed to have the same section about dropcaps...

    dauwhe: one was where i was sketching things out before i
    entered it in the editors' draft
    ... the latter link is the correct one

    Bill_Kasdorf: bravo to dave, wonderful work, thanks so much
    ... can drop cap issue be resolved without being tied up
    w/resolution of a bunch of other CSS issues? is there a

    dauwhe: what matters is implementation, getting people
    interested in implementing
    ... there are people with the ability to drive implementation
    who are interested in this. i don
    ... i think this is something that will move forward
    ... will it be split out or remain part of line layout? for now
    it will be left as part of line layout. i dont see a problem
    with it not being split out.
    ... i don't see there being an implementation issue with
    regards to rest of the line layout spec

    pkra: any chance of ...polyfill

    dauwhe: someone is working on that now

    <astearns> I have a person on my team at Adobe investigating a
    polyfill - no promises, though

    pkra: things like polyfill and mathml could help us enormously

    dauwhe: with some lobbying the line layout is now a high
    priority for the CSS working group

    mgylling: the editor's draft is there, someone working on a
    polyfill, browser vendors are interested. is there anything
    that the IG can do to help you out?

    dauwhe: no
    ... the most valuable thing in the world is attention from
    interested people, any sort of attention or comments to
    www-style are really helpful
    ... if you happen to work for browser companies, lobbying is
    appreciated too

    mgylling: test cases?

    dauwhe: haven't thought about that yet. we're in editor's draft
    stage, still trying to sort out what the features are. once
    that settles down we'll be thinking about test cases

    mgylling: alan?

    astearns: in terms of helping out, if you use ibooks or has
    ibookss contacts, lobbying there will help convince webkit to
    implement more quickly

    dauwhe: exactly
    ... other high priority was footnotes. status is murkier.
    antenna house and prince support footnotes with similar syntax.
    CSS module for paged content discusses footnotes, but there
    really hasn't been much support for those concepts in wider
    ... they require a lot of magic to drive without identifying a
    fundamental mechanism...they dont feel a part of the open web
    platform as it exists today. and so, want to find the visual
    effects we want based on tools that are being created for
    modern CSS

    <pbelfanti> Apologies, I must drop for another meeting

    dauwhe: esp the idea of regions. you can take some content and
    flow it into a region and you can style that region. was
    wondering if we can get a more robust definition of footnotes
    if we can base it on regions. was playing around with this,
    wrote up some sample syntax. discussed it ast the face to face
    meeting at Seoul.
    ... using ideas from regions and various page template
    proposals, addresses what we want but more firmly grounded in
    CSS as it is evolving today
    ... result of discussions. start a level 4 of the GCM spec.
    this will serve as an experimental draft to see if we can work
    out a good def. of footnotes based on regions and other
    template ideas. it hasn't been created yet. will be co-editor.
    daniel g? is also co-editor.
    ... will give us better definition for running headers and
    footers, greater flexibility and power. planning to start
    working on that soon.
    ... that's footnotes

    Luc: agree w/dave about footnotes. kind of item we need to
    define more conceptually.
    ... in digital we can render it differently, need to define the
    item it via semantics vs rendering structure. footnote is
    complementary content. way it can be rendered can have
    different actions from print.

    dauwhe: i would agree with that. a footnote is a particular
    visual rendition of a certain kind of semantic content. being
    able to do this with CSS because with media queries or print
    style sheet and allows you to treat print and digital
    ... my goal is we want to have this display option as one of
    our choices, but it is not the onlt choice.

    Bill_Kasdorf: my comments are along the same line. could this
    also apply to marginal notes? key is to get rid of concept of

    <Luc> +1

    dauwhe: nice thing with footnotes as regions is you get
    sidenotes for free

    you can have multiple footnote areas, you get sidenotes, in
    what seems to be a natural way

    ivan: footnotes are close to annotation. need way to avoid too
    many parallel discussions. we already have use cases defined
    for annotations. may be useful to review annotation with a
    footnote glass on yr nose (?)
    ... we are at point where in a few weeks the charter for the
    annotation working group will go to AC. work will begin in

    <fjh> +1 to considering annotations; CSS also relevant so a bit
    to coordinate

    ivan: try to bind things together for synergy

    dauwhe: that's a good idea. i will look to see how this fits
    w/the proposed annotations.

    ivan: the two proposed co-chairs are on the call right now

    azaroth: happy to answer questions

    dauwhe: what's come up today - can this concept be useful
    annotations - is useful.

    ivan: is it still useful to think about footnote-specific use
    cases? publishers know the footnote use cases the best. is
    there still a possibility to chase for more of those

    dauwhe: that leads to something that is happening with
    footnotes and dropcaps, there is tension between creating a
    feature that can address every possible use case and a feature
    that is relatively easy to specify and implement
    ... being getting lots of examples of dropcaps from books that
    are hundreds of years old, something that is woven in to the
    entire page. i love seeing them, i don't think we can implement
    a spec that can support everything that was done in the last
    800 years [did i get his right -ben]
    ... we aim for 80-90% not 99.9%

    <astearns> perhaps even 60%, as long as what we expose can be
    extended to another 20-40%

    mgylling: with 15 minutes to go what else do you have for us?

    dauwhe: trying to find out what our are priorities as far as
    layout goes, where can we put effort and get the greatest
    payback. would love to hear are there 1 or 2 other areas that
    we should focus on to try and get something going

    mgylling: anyone?

    dauwhe: at the idpf convention ran into will mannis(sp?), had
    problems with inline module of CSS. he was doing some work to
    get PDFs into ebook form and the baseline handling of CSS was
    preventing him from doing what he wanted

    mgylling: keep this question open for awhile. it's obviously an
    excellent strategy to identify the highest priority and go for
    them. question about the latin req document. how does that
    evolve now in relation to yr other activities?

    dauwhe: latin req doc has certainly taken a back seat to the
    work going on in CSS.
    ... can move stuff back into latin req based on some examples
    and illustrations created for CSS working group
    ... if the group can identify priority areas in latin req, we
    can. looking at it as a whole is overwhelming. in practice,
    adding to it has been difficult since there are not a lot of
    other people working on it right now

    <Bill_Kasdorf> +1 on running headers and footers

    Luc: re:priorities in latin req. after drop cap and footnotes,
    question of running headers and footers because when we use ???
    we had difficult question of large books that are ??? couldn't
    be read..
    ... we re facing this problem...dictionaries, large volumes of
    very precise information.... would like this to be examined for
    the future [i wasn't able to capture the exact nature of the
    prob - ben]

    Bill_Kasdorf: being able to maintain header and footer around
    long sections is very useful

    <Luc> without running headers and footers, large books cannot
    be made avalaible in EPUB

    dauwhe: it's a navigation aid in keeping yr bearings in a vast
    expanse. from phonebooks to indexes that have headers showing
    ... highly evolved solutions that came up through print, the
    need for them has been shown, how do we meet that same need in
    a digital environment

    mgylling: running headers and footers might be addressed by the
    footnote work

    dauwhe: we're talking about content that is being copied
    elsewhere in the document to serve as a visual marker
    ... it gets awkwards as the content of running heads gets more
    complex. or as you want to display that content in an unusual

    mgylling: is chapter 8 solid enough to be reference for CSS
    working group?

    dauwhe: not sure what state is in right now

    mgylling: chapter 8 could be another focus area
    ... ...return in 2 weeks to discuss this. some of the others
    may come from the STEM area. we deviate a bit from the agenda
    re:task force names to talk about STEM. Peter to discuss.

    pkra: my question what is scope of the interest group.
    progressive enhancements (responsive tables), user agent
    suggestions, and new standards (e.g., scientific notation)
    ... maybe this is off the mark because i am new to this so
    looking for input

    mgylling: so is your question is "are new standards out of

    pkra: yes

    is it out of scope to pick new standards (e.g., chemml) as
    winners to move to w3c?

    mgylling: to me the answer is not out of scope, charter of
    working group is to identify needs of the publishing community.
    we can have luxury during use case definition to not worry
    about difficulty of use case.
    ... if the scientific pub community that cannot be met by
    existing specs of open web platform, then we should document
    that fallacy(?).
    ... do not hold back in terms of this stuff. we are not
    proposing solutions in this IG. we are only providing use cases
    and motivations for forthcoming solutions. ivan?

    ivan: fully agree
    ... if we identeify as specific area--e.g., chemical
    markup--and we think ahead to see if this can be standardized,
    we not only name the standard but give an idea about the size
    the importance of the market, the main players as much as we
    ... fully agree with markus. one other thing i was wondering
    about--this came up in the past--some of STEM's problems (e.g.,
    chemistry)--i've heard that components at W3C may be a good
    general solution.
    ... don't know if that is true or not. we should look at how
    the web components evolved....last question is--mathml is
    defined to be k12 but was not meant to be the tool for
    theoretical physicists.
    ... isn't it also true that use cases may reveal holes in the
    existing standards

    <gcapiel> +q

    pkra: i'd say it is the opposite (from implementation). problem
    is parts of the mathml specification there are no way to
    implement [?]

    <Bill_Kasdorf> K-12 math wasn't introduced in MathML until
    MathML 3.0. It was originally for the mathematicians and

    <Julie> I have to sign off now-- thanks for the meeting!

    gcapiel: as to missing use cases, presentation matjml which is
    what is being used on the web, there are a lot of missing
    semantics to make it more usable from an accessiiblity
    ... gap between prsentation mathml nd content mathml

    mgylling: at next call start with STEM discussion sorry too
    short today
    ... talk next monday

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]

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