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[Minutes] 2014-06-30 Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
Date: Tue, 01 Jul 2014 08:58:43 +0200
Message-ID: <53B25C23.90902@w3.org>
To: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Hi all,

The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference 
dated 2014-06-30 are now available at

http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-dpub-minutes.html

These public minutes are also linked  from the dpub wiki
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings

Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.

Best,

Thierry Michel

----------------------------

    [1]W3C

       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

             Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference

30 Jun 2014

    [2]Agenda

       [2] 
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Jun/0059.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2014/06/30-dpub-irc

Attendees

    Present:
           [4]Bill Kasdorf (Bill_Kasdorf), [5]Brady Duga (duga),
           [6]Charles LaPierre (clapierre1), [7]Dave Cramer
           (dauwhe), [8]David Stroup (david_stroup), [9]Deborah
           Kaplan (dkaplan3), [10]Frederick Hirsch (fjh), [11]Ivan
           Herman (ivan), [12]Julie Morris (julie), [13]Karen Myers
           (karen), [14]Laura Dawson (dawson), [15]Laura Fowler,
           [16]Liam Quin [17](Liam), [18]Liza Daly, [19]Luc Audrain
           (Luc), [20]Markus Gylling (mgylling), [21]Michael
           Miller, [22]Paul Belfanti, [23]Peter Krautzberger
           (pkra), [24]Phil Madans (philm), [25]Thierry Michel
           (tmichel), [26]Timothy Cole (timCole), [27]Vladimir
           Levantovsky

       [4] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Bill_Kasdorf
       [5] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Brady_Duga
       [6] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Charles_LaPierre
       [7] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Dave_Cramer
       [8] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/David_Stroup
       [9] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Deborah_Kaplan
      [10] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Frederick_Hirsch
      [11] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Ivan_Herman
      [12] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Julie_Morris
      [13] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Karen_Myers
      [14] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Laura_Dawson
      [15] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Laura_Fowler
      [16] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Liam_Quin
      [17] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Liam_Quin
      [18] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Liza_Daly
      [19] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Luc_Audrain
      [20] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Markus_Gylling
      [21] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Michael_Miller
      [22] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Paul_Belfanti
      [23] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Peter_Krautzberger
      [24] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Phil_Madans
      [25] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Thierry_Michel
      [26] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Timothy_Cole
      [27] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Vladimir_Levantovsky

    Regrets: Alan Stearns (astearns)
    Chair:
           [28]Markus Gylling (mgylling)

      [28] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Markus_Gylling

    Scribe:
           [29]Laura Dawson[30] (dawson)

      [29] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Laura_Dawson
      [30] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Laura_Dawson

Contents

      * [31]Topics
      * [32]Summary of Action Items
      __________________________________________________________

    <trackbot> Date: 30 June 2014

    <clapierre1> Zakium 1.650.644 is me

    <philm> Hi, Dave

    <clapierre1> Zakium aabb is me

    <pkra> pkra is +1.617.858.aahh

    <scribe> scribenick: dauwhe

    mgylling: objections to approving minutes?

    clapierre: my name was mshouldbepelled in minutes

    mgylling: one can edit minutes directly in IRC

    Ivan: one word or two?

    clapierre1: one

    mgylling: Are minutes approved?
    ... yes.
    ... Topic: summer break

    <fjh> some editing tips here,
    [33]http://www.w3.org/2008/xmlsec/Group/Scribe-Instructions.htm
    l (members only link)

      [33] http://www.w3.org/2008/xmlsec/Group/Scribe-Instructions.html

    mgylling: should we have a summer break during July?
    ... it would not prevent individual task force work
    ... any reactions?

    <clapierre1> thanks

    mgylling: suggestion was to start again on 11 August

    <AH_Miller> I've took my vacation last week.

    Julie: July and August are equally busy in the US
    ... July is worse for me

    mgylling: Liza, Ivan, what do you say?

    <brady_duga> Sorry, I am having phone issues and on my commute
    to work, so I will have to drop and won’t be able to rejoin

    <Luc> I'll be away beginning of August coming back after th
    20th

    mgylling: we could reconvene on Aug 11 as heartbeat check

    Liam: some groups have editing review meetings--review docs on
    IRC

    Ivan: during aug 11 heartbeat decide what to do

    mgylling: we'll reconvene August 11

    liza: a11y task force has been meeting
    ... would that be good topic for next week?

    mgylling: Charles, do you think that would be a good topic?

    charles: next Monday would be good for me.

    Liza: let's do that.

    <Karen> +1 Accessibility topic on 7 July

    Ivan: herding stray phone numbers

    <David_stroup> 585 David stroup

    Markus: heavy sigh

    mgylling: Peter, the idea is to get quality time to understand
    STEM use cases work
    ... and to get suggestions you need.
    ... I don't have a plan for this
    ... I'd like to learn about the thinking and wiki work you've
    done so far

    pkra: I added a few more math-specific use cases
    ... things like graphing and diagrams
    ... not sure which direction work should go

    <tm> sorry I had lost my ADSL connection :-((

    pkra: progressive enhancements fed into STEM stuff
    ... user agent improvements

    <ivan> [34]Chemistry use case

      [34] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Chemistry_UC

    <scribe> ... new standards like ChemML are in scope? Yes.

    <ivan> [35]Diagrams, Graphics Use cases

      [35] http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Diagrams_and_Graphing_UC

    UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: is mathml enough for science?
    ... mathml may need work to support k-12

    <Luc> Sorry cannot make it.

    UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: there were emails

    <Bill_Kasdorf> actually it was MathML 3.0 that added the K-12
    support

    UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: tcole brought up contacting digital library of
    mathematics folks
    ... George K. added some notes on a11y pointed towards
    describedby and other ARIA things
    ... that's what I've gathered so far
    ... my questions aabout scope
    ... how do web components work here?
    ... for chem there's ChemML that might be typical use case
    ... if platform doesn't already support these standards, could
    web components help?
    ... where is the balance to be found?
    ... mathml is a good example. Is it a problem or poster child
    for web standards?
    ... it's sucessfull on creation side
    ... it's the xml and html way of writing math
    ... but it's a huge problem because browsers haven't supported
    ... web components could solve some problems, but make it
    harder to publish these materisals

    <liam> [I believe safari has mathml support, and there's some
    mediocre support in firefox]

    UNKNOWN_SPEAKER: where to draw the line between web components
    and standards work
    ... can we do everything in SVG? Yes, but it doesn't solve
    problems of publishers.

    mgylling: it's a valid question
    ... if we look at from use case perspective, you shouldn't have
    to worry
    ... the first thing we have to do is describe how publishers
    want to use the OWP
    ... whether we have a name is the next question
    ... you can pretend to be ignorant about the solution space,
    and describe the problelm space
    ... you have updated the toc in the use case directory?

    pkra: yes

    mgylling: it might sound like a dry, academic answer to
    separate things like that
    ...: web folks doen't know what content folks want to do
    ... mathml is a good example. Great expectations among
    publishers, nothing from web world
    ... if we say web components, we can answer every possible
    question
    ... lots of hype right now
    ... with a good amount of scripting and connectivity you can
    make things loook like they are real
    ... declarative vs scripted
    ... should publishing give up on declaritive and go all-in for
    scripting
    ... so we'd just draw math on canvas and give up on mathml
    ... key issue is declarative vs scripted

    timCole: one nuance... based on mathml experience, why would
    publisher see advanatage in using some of these technologies

    <Zakim> liam, you wanted to point out that web components don't
    really address the problem

    timCole: people ask why can't I use TeX

    Liam: three things
    ... just two
    ... one: web components would address the markup issue, but we
    already have mathml
    ... the difficult part is formatting
    ... so you either recreate mathjax
    ... there's nothing in CSS to do math formatting without a lot
    of work
    ... the other part is JATS
    ... which is used in STM publishing
    ... as opposed to STEM
    ... STM uses MathML extensively

    <Bill_Kasdorf> and BITS is the book counterpart to JATS

    clapierre1: on a11y we have to make sure we don
    ... lose descriptive presentation for math
    ... we can't forget that

    Bill_Kasdorf: there's now BITS: book interchange tag suite
    ... Mathml is part of that
    ... declarative vs scripted. I'm on the declarative side
    ... here's something that's richly described, then scripting
    can do something with that
    ... I have a preference for making available a resource that
    many things can be done with

    mgylling: I'm a big fan of declarative, as it helps with a11y,
    and the presentation can be negotiated with the user

    <pbelfanti> must drop from call - regrets

    mgylling: scripted stuff can have user negotiation, but is more
    like black box
    ... it is a tricky question
    ... we can love declarative
    ... but if the cost and struggle to get something to work that
    way is too high
    ... will the publishing community adopt?

    Bill_Kasdorf: if it doesn't have support, it's not useful

    Ivan: to comment on web components; I'm not married to them
    ... I didn't mean to use web components for mathml
    ... I was wondering about chemistry or electronics
    ... on declarative vs scripted
    ... in an ideal world the reason I was wondering about it was
    exactly that
    ... it gives the end user a way to extend the declarative part
    of html who's behaviour is encoded in JS
    ... once those components are defined, the author would use the
    markup in a declarative way
    ... and the component/script would do the presentation
    ... for example, with ChemML it's a way forward without brower
    support for ChemML
    ... i don't know if web components are rich enough for these
    kinds of uses
    ... but may be worth considering

    mgylling: the setup you describe is not that different from
    MathML plus mathjax

    pkra: I had understood it that way, Ivan. My question came from
    Markus inviting me to not care about the solution
    ... I do believe web components will be useful
    ... my question: how do we combine this?
    ... what do we want from interesteed parties?
    ... our use case is going to be to use this markup but not as a
    web standard, but as a web component standard
    ... how do we get the richest feedback?

    mgylling: I think so

    pkra: web platform offers everything with mathml svg canvas,
    you'd have a really powerful base
    ... it comes down to making it usable
    ... what do we do on the standards side of this
    ... do we pick winners, identify the standards with the biggest
    market
    ... and combine that with ideas that can work as web components

    mgylling: the pub community wants answers. what should we focus
    on?
    ... big-time publishers still provide math as bitmap images
    ... not because they're ignorant but because it's the only
    thing that works everywhere
    ... this IG can provide answers: you should use X for this
    problem
    ... another thought: the fact that web components exist doesn't
    matter in most cases because publishers don't have the
    engineering staff
    ... that will feed into a preexisting web component taht would
    render such content

    <Bill_Kasdorf> +1

    mgylling: it doesn't remove the need for standards, just
    changes where things are standardized, as a web component thing
    or as a markup language

    Ivan: not either/or
    ... from author/editor POV, it looks clear that a declarative
    standard is necessary.
    ... who would do that is separate question
    ... if I would do that today, the browsers will not just
    implement it by themselves
    ... we've learned the lesson of MathML
    ... I'd look at another way of implementing
    ... web components might be another way of implementing
    something
    ... so these things can be done in parallel
    ... my question is still (for example with ChemML)
    ... is this doable with web components?
    ... it may be technically not feasible
    ... I don't know if that's true or false
    ... it would be very valuable to find out the answer
    ... I don't just don't want to believe that web components
    would solve, in case they would't
    ... Peter, you may know this

    <liam> [I note that today there's JavaScript to render CML in
    SVG]

    Ivan: the reason why the browsers have not implemented mathml
    is that they don't feel there's a market
    ... it's not a priority
    ... would a concentrated documentation of all the needs of the
    publishing industry overall
    ... including scholarly publishing (and not just books)
    ... and bring in business figures to show how important this is
    ... would this help browsers change their mind?

    mgylling: we should talk about who to reach out

    Bill_Kasdorf: AAP implementation project, Mathml was the
    highest priority from a11y people
    ... on the strategy of mathml plus canvas, I believe that just
    deals with display issues
    ... and not interactive issues?

    pkra: Yes

    Bill_Kasdorf: another benefit of mathml is that it does both
    things

    pkra: there's a bit of a gap here, there's two separate
    standards
    ... content vs display
    ... presentation is already pretty rich, a11y tools can use
    ... there aren't authoring tools in content mathml

    Bill_Kasdorf: presentational is the highest priority

    pkra: it's easy to convert back and forth
    ... then you can talk about more advanced computation/display

    <Zakim> liam, you wanted to discuss some people to whom to
    reach out to - CML: peter Murray-Rust (of course); STM
    publishing: [36]http://www.stm-assoc.org/ and others; mathml
    semantic tools

      [36] http://www.stm-assoc.org/

    pkra: I've given up trying to understand vendors
    ... lots of interest on browser implemtation side, just not
    enough to get the ball rolling
    ... I agree with ivan, making the business case would help
    ... and that's not just for mathml

    mgylling: that should be the ambition of the use cases
    ... let's just describe what publishers want to do

    <liam> [some people to whom to reach out - CML: peter
    Murray-Rust (of course); STM publishing:
    [37]http://www.stm-assoc.org/ and others; mathml semantic tools
    will happen, e.g. from maple, wulfram, if needed ]

      [37] http://www.stm-assoc.org/

    Liam: who to reach out to?
    ... someone mentioned CML, Peter Murray-Rust; there's an
    association of STM publishers
    ... Maple and Wolfram are market leaders for software

    <pkra> add sagemath, iPython.

    <clapierre1> Happy Canada Day (tomorrow July 1) :)

    Liam: if publishing world said we need this, there are people
    with authoring tools

    <liam> [merci]

    Bill_Kasdorf: Two more... I can get people from SSP folks

    <AH_Miller> How about Design Science and the work being done by
    Frédéric Wang?

    Bill_Kasdorf: also Design Science

    <liam> +1 Design Science

    Liam: they also make word plugins

    mgylling: the idea would be to grow use case collection

    <AH_Miller> Frédéric Wang has been working on MathML for Gecko
    and WebKit.

    mgylling: not only to convince browsers about mathml
    ... but to grow the whole world of scholarly publishing
    ... and we invite feedback from more people
    ... do you have things to add to existing use case collection?

    pkra: I have some rough ideas but there's not a list
    ... let's reach out to everyone to get ideas
    ... two things: who's working on the task force?
    ... Tim Cole is interested
    ... especially on non-math stuff
    ... engineering has many higher needs

    Bill_Kasdorf: I'd be happy to help, I have lots of contacts

    timCole: I have lots of contacts, too.

    Ivan: before we go, one more comment
    ... Madi and Bill did lots of interviews with people in the
    space
    ... which would be synthesized into a document
    ... something similar would be helpful here
    ... since we want a "business plan"
    ... backing that up with major players and companies gives it
    more weight
    ... so you might want to look at what bill and Madi did as an
    example

    Bill_Kasdorf: it's all on the wiki now

    mgylling: it's a good way to gather data
    ... it does take time, though

    Ivan: Force 11 is looking at scholarly publishing

    pkra: Summary: I'm in a good place right now; I have a lot go
    through
    ... can plan what you're describing, and come back with more
    use cases etc

    mgylling: sounds good to me

    <clapierre1> yes

    mgylling: we're over time. Any final comments?

Summary of Action Items

    [End of minutes]
      __________________________________________________________


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