- From: Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 07 Jan 2014 19:46:36 +0100
- To: W3C Digital Publishing IG <public-digipub-ig@w3.org>
Hi all,
The minutes of the Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
dated 2014-01-06 are now available at
http://www.w3.org/2014/01/06-dpub-minutes.html
These public minutes are also linked from the dpub wiki
http://www.w3.org/dpub/IG/wiki/Meetings
Also find these minutes in a text version following, for your convenience.
Best,
Thierry Michel
--------------------------------------------------
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
Digital Publishing Interest Group Teleconference
06 Jan 2014
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2014/01/06-dpub-irc
Attendees
Present
Liza, +33.1.41.23.aaaa, Ivan, dauwhe, mgylling, Tzviya,
laudrain, azaroth, fjh, +1.347.633.aabb, benjaminsko,
Stearns, duga, gcapiel, JeanKaplansky, Laura_Fowler,
tmichel, Vlad, Suzanne_Taylor, madi, Liam, Bill_Kasdorf,
Frederick_Hirsch
Regrets
TomDN
Chair
Markus
Scribe
Tzviya
Contents
* [3]Topics
[4]latinreq
* [5]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 06 January 2014
<Pdanet> tnx Ivan, and, BTW, Hny 2014. I thought it was now,
5:00 PM is difficult for me today but Luc will be there
<ivan> Scribe: Tzviya
<scribe> scribe: tzviya
<ivan> Guest: Julie Morris, BISG
markus: minutes from previous meeting approved
minutes:
[6]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013De
c/0042.html
[6]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Dec/0042.html
ivan: announcements
... madi solomon has decided to step down as co-chair because
of changes at Pearson
... Liza Daly is taking over as co-chair
Liza: thank you
welcome Liza
<lizadaly> Hooray!
Ivan: new members joining group, including Apple
... 2 members from Apple David Singer AC rep at W3C
... and Casey Dougherty
... wekcome Julie Morris as almost member of group from BISG
<mgylling> css shapes:
[7]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013No
v/0088.html
[7]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Nov/0088.html
Julie: look forward to continued participatiion
Markus: CSS shapes review
<lizadaly> Page selectors > shapes
markus: review is due on Jan 7
azaroth: did a quick read through and sent response to list
<mgylling> robs review:
[8]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013De
c/0049.html
[8]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2013Dec/0049.html
dave: did not get to over holidays
dave will look at this afternoon
scribe: and send note to list if there is anything specific to
comment on. much is over dave's head (!)
Alan: no need to collate Dave + Rob's comments
markus: is there any area in particular to pay attention to?
alan: CSS WG looking to this groups experience with text wrap
to see if anything missed
<scribe> ACTION: dave to review CSS shapes and respond to CSS
WG [recorded in
[9]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/06-dpub-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-15 - Review css shapes and respond to
css wg [on Dave Cramer - due 2014-01-13].
markus: next time we get request like this, plan further in
advance
dave: different requests will generate different levels of
interest. Will vary by subject matter
latinreq
<astearns> dauwhe: it may be more useful to read through the
current editor's draft which includes some changes based on
last call comments
<astearns> [10]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-shapes/
[10] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-shapes/
markus: a few replies to dave's request for critical areas, but
up to dave to take it from here
Dave: work has been progressing slowly on the document
... recent changes have been a section on drop caps and raised
caps
<ivan> [11]latest version of Dave's document
[11] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/
Dave: that made me think of questions some of us have in ebook
production
... drop caps are common in print, and many of try to use them
in ebook
... drop caps are tricky in CSS - top needs to align with
character top. Raised cap needs to base align with other
characters
... In CSS, we encode number of lines and floats
... this seems to be an area where the calculation should be
done for us
... would be nice if rendering agent could do calculation of
line heights and different fonts for us
Markus: isn't this a perfect example of the kind of thing that
we'd like to see?
Dave: yes
Brady: is this as specific as we want drop caps? or more
specific units?
Dave: been thinking about that. Shifting from print to digital
includes shifting ways of measuring
<Zakim> liam, you wanted to address brady's question
Dave: part of me thinks that shorthand "make this a drop-cap"
would be useful, but I'm not sure
<Bill_Kasdorf> yes I'm in LUX on Skype
<lizadaly> We already do have :first-letter in CSS already
Liam: been through desire for drop caps with CSS WG in past.
They said just multiply by 3. We need to be clear and precise
markus: what else going on in the document?
dave: footnotes - collecting use cases of footnotes and where
displayed
<ivan> [12]footnotes' section
[12] http://w3c.github.io/dpub-pagination/#footnotes
dave: getting a sense of properties that satisfy most users'
needs
... this seems like a good way to collect info about what
should be happening
tzviya: how much of this needs to be preserved in ebooks? a lot
of this is done to save paper
dave: print is in scope for this
... is the popup something we all agree upon?
tzviya: no, in academic works, there needs to be a method for
citation, which would be more difficult with pop-ups
Bill: perhaps we should abandon the term "footnote" in favor of
"note" so that we don't indicate location on page
... do we have a method for indicating priority? Many of the
samples discussed on the list are very rare
Luc: as soon as we decide to display on 2-dimensional area
(page), we have concerns about quality
... most of the time in reflowable view, we have to cope with
horizontal display. Must address quality of rendering. If we
can address notes in semantic way - make them appear when
needed
... then we remove the problem of quality
<Zakim> liam, you wanted to note pop-ups may also have
accessibility difficulties
dave: one of aims of this document is to describe rendering
Liam: the nature of a footnote is that it is not distracting.
Pop-ups could present a challenge to that. Could be a problem
for accessibility as well. Keep in mind.
Brady: I often miss note references in paper books. There is a
risk of this happening with pop-ups as well.
Luc: Semantics should enable a subtle reference
Dave: we've experimented with larger note refs and similar.
There are many kinds of notes. Footnote may be used as
shorthand for endnotes and many other kinds of notes
markus: in case of whether or not want pop-ups, there is
connection to behavioral adaptive content as well as
personalization
... it seems that dave wanted to identify low-hanging fruit
Rob: annotations also play into notes space
Markus: should we look at suggestions provided on list?
<ivan> [13]luc's email
[13]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-digipub-ig/2014Jan/0002.html
Dave: Luc addressed text justification and composition rules
... we all know good layout when we see it, but what is it?
<JeanK> +1
Dave: do we or some other group need to more formally describe
how justification should work?
<astearns>
[14]http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/#text-justify-property is
all we have today in CSS for justification language specifics
[14] http://dev.w3.org/csswg/css-text/#text-justify-property
Luc: there are algorithms that define how spacing should work
... for example, see InDesign paragraph composition algorithm
that checks spacing and repetition is correct
Ivan: please define composition engine
Luc: computes horizontal spacing between words
... good distribution between spaces and word
... priority is hyphenation and vertical justification
Dave: yes, we all read ebooks in which an H1 is last item on
page
Bill: hyphenation is rarely mentioned without justification
(H&J)
... the two work in tandem - adjust spacing when add a hyphen
<astearns> hyphenation is also useful in ragged text, for
reducing line length variation
<Zakim> liam, you wanted to mention recent CSS change to
improve line-breaking
brady: can't really do hyphenation with justification
Liam: having done some work on line breaking a few years, i
have a proposal for CSS WG
... a property to indicate whether a line break is for
interactive use or batch use
... when add a line of text, the content might move around
<Luc> +1
Liam: second property allows you to specify the name of line
breaking algorithm and parsing parameters
... this will likely be accepted by CSS WG
<JeanK> [15]http://webtypography.net/intro/
[15] http://webtypography.net/intro/
Jean: dave asked whether these are in use
<JeanK>
[16]http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2013/05/17/typographic-desi
gn-patterns-practices-case-study-2013/
[16]
http://www.smashingmagazine.com/2013/05/17/typographic-design-patterns-practices-case-study-2013/
Jean: Some have attempted to bring Robert Bringhurst's work to
the web (see Jean's links above)
... A lot of composition that is done in XML are doing
transformations to older languages, TEX and others
... people on web are paying attention to this. See
typeface.js, kerning.js and others
... it would be worth our time to look at some of the resources
available - will provide links
<JeanK> [17]http://kerningjs.com/
[17] http://kerningjs.com/
markus: before we move beyond hyphenation, what is your
takeaway, Dave?
<liam> s/TEK/TeX/
<JeanK> [18]http://letteringjs.com/
[18] http://letteringjs.com/
dave: there is a lot of energy and dissatisfaction. We need to
continue to look at this
<Bill_Kasdorf> not TeX?
<JeanK> [19]http://typeface.neocracy.org/
[19] http://typeface.neocracy.org/
ivan: another area that bothers me as a reader
... that is where hyphenation occurs - the line breaks are in
the wrong location. The words break so that they look like
other words
<JeanK> [20]http://fittextjs.com/
[20] http://fittextjs.com/
dave: the quality of the justification is based on the quality
of the justification dictionary
<Zakim> liam, you wanted to note difference between unattended
and attended formatting
liam: traditional print assumes that an editor will check the
hyphenation
... when there us dynamic hyphenation in place, must ise good
algorithm
<JeanK> [21]http://artequalswork.com/posts/on-widows.php
[21] http://artequalswork.com/posts/on-widows.php
Luc: the question of the language of the text is a main issue
of accessibility
Dave: another issue is image sizing and relationship of caption
to image
... some reading systems did not assume the need to see a whole
image
... important use case is need to keep image and caption
together
... as increase font size, how much should image be allowed to
decrease?
markus: Koji mentioned in tokyo that Kobo wanted to exclude
captions from font adjustments to help avoid this problem
dave: will be a large number of issues around tables
... ben has done a lot of research around tables. Even simple
areas such simple areas as aligning on decimal is important
Markus: we spoke about involving alan and adobe in this
document especially in area of advanced adaptive layout
alan: not yet, will discuss with colleagues
markus: what is timeline for first public draft?
dave: still seems early for that. Nothing on tables yet.. Not
much on images yet
ivan: a published draft may include place holders
... would the sections that have meat be improved by public
review and comments?
dave: I'm fine with public comments as long as people know this
is a work in progress
... especially areas like drop caps
<JeanK> +1
markus: 2 of task forces are closer to publicizing something -
this group and annotations
... what should we do next week?
... we could continue with this, but I think we should go a
full round?
<astearns> (had to drop for another meeting)
<Luc> +1
Jean: I think we should stick with this subject
... there's a whole group of people we haven't spoken to, font
people, web typography
dave: I would love to get contributions from the front lines of
web typography
<Luc> Me too
ivan: that is why pushing out the doc as soon as possible is a
good idea
jean: my concern about pushing this out too early is that it
will look like an incomplete document and it will reflect badly
ivan: it will look like a working draft
markus: we need to know who these organizations are. can you
(Jean) help?
jean: many of us will be at the ebook hack over weekend and
digital book world next week
markus: should we do another task force or continue with this
next week?
<JeanK> Start here... : [22]http://tdc.org/
[22] http://tdc.org/
dave: It seems there is pent up demand to continue
markus: is DBW on Monday? Who will be able to attend?
next meeting on Monday 13 Jan
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: dave to review CSS shapes and respond to CSS WG
[recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/06-dpub-minutes.html#action01]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [24]scribe.perl version
1.138 ([25]CVS log)
$Date: 2014-01-07 18:34:00 $
__________________________________________________________
[24] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[25] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
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This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.138 of Date: 2013-04-25 13:59:11
Check for newer version at [26]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
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[26] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/
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Found Scribe: Tzviya
Inferring ScribeNick: tzviya
Found Scribe: tzviya
Inferring ScribeNick: tzviya
Default Present: Liza, +33.1.41.23.aaaa, Ivan, dauwhe, mgylling, Tzviya,
laudrain, azaroth, fjh, +1.347.633.aabb, benjaminsko, Stearns, duga, gc
apiel, JeanKaplansky, Laura_Fowler, tmichel, Vlad, Suzanne_Taylor, madi,
Liam, Bill_Kasdorf
Present: Liza +33.1.41.23.aaaa Ivan dauwhe mgylling Tzviya laudrain azar
oth fjh +1.347.633.aabb benjaminsko Stearns duga gcapiel JeanKaplansky L
aura_Fowler tmichel Vlad Suzanne_Taylor madi Liam Bill_Kasdorf Frederick
_Hirsch
Regrets: TomDN
WARNING: No meeting chair found!
You should specify the meeting chair like this:
<dbooth> Chair: dbooth
Found Date: 06 Jan 2014
Guessing minutes URL: [27]http://www.w3.org/2014/01/06-dpub-minutes.html
People with action items: dave
[27] http://www.w3.org/2014/01/06-dpub-minutes.html
[End of [28]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
[28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/%7Echeckout%7E/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Tuesday, 7 January 2014 18:47:05 UTC