Re: [csswg-drafts] [css-values-5] Maybe min, max and step should not be part of the random-caching-key (#11742)

The CSS Working Group just discussed `[css-values-5] Maybe min, max and step should not be part of the random-caching-key`, and agreed to the following:

* `RESOLVED: Accept the proposal for changing random caching as stated in the issue.`
* `RESOLVED: Go with element-shared for now, keep renaming issue open because many people are unhappy with it`

<details><summary>The full IRC log of that discussion</summary>
&lt;dholbert> ScribeNick+ dholbert<br>
&lt;fantasai> scribe+<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: The random() functions currently, by default, are maximally random.<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: two axes controlling how they resolve<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: 1. Which property they're in, and what index in the declaration<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: 2. whether same across all elements or different<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: can change either of these<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: Force same across properties/instances by applying custom ident<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: or force same across elements by using special keyword<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: some opposition from oriol about the way that the element sharing was phrased<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: He preferred previous model where elements shared by default, and opt out<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: Since then several people commented preferring that starting with maximal randomnes is better<br>
&lt;oriol> q+<br>
&lt;astearns> ack oriol<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: so my proposal is to adopt the proposed model, and then address naming quesiton<br>
&lt;fantasai> oriol: My concern is that when you provide the keyword, not clear that you would share across instances but not across elements<br>
&lt;fantasai> oriol: In our other properties with custom elements, you get same behavior for same custom ident<br>
&lt;fantasai> oriol: I worry it could create some confusion<br>
&lt;fantasai> oriol: But I think if you provide random() with no parameter, maximizing randomness is better<br>
&lt;astearns> ack fantasai<br>
&lt;TabAtkins> fantasai: one option is that "no parameters" is maximum randomness, using a custom ident gives you global correspondence, and using custom-ident+a keyword gives you shared in an element, but differetn across elements<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: Yes, that would be a "per-element" keyword, discussed already<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: I don't like that because it breaks independence of omitted chunks<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: omitting all params shouldn't be different from the behavior of omitting each individually<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: We usually adhere to that model, so I prefer to stick to that model.<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: Specifying peels back specific aspect of randomness.<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: rather than doing an inversion as soon as you specify anything<br>
&lt;fantasai> fantasai: I don't mind either way, just saying this is another possible syntax model.<br>
&lt;fantasai> astearns: so should we resolve on this model of maximal randomness?<br>
&lt;fantasai> RESOLVED: Accept the proposal for changing random caching as stated in the issue.<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: We need to name the share-randomness-across-elements keyword<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: some options were `element-shared` and `all-elements` ... other suggestions in issue<br>
&lt;fantasai> Proposal is at https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11742#issuecomment-2707697957<br>
&lt;fantasai> [this should go into the resolution]<br>
&lt;fantasai> astearns: Do we have existing keywords related to this idea?<br>
&lt;bramus> q+<br>
&lt;fantasai> Suggested keywords https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11742#issuecomment-2708387121<br>
&lt;astearns> ack bramus<br>
&lt;astearns> ack fantasai<br>
&lt;bkardell_> +1<br>
&lt;TabAtkins> fantasai: I think I agree with tim on match-element being confusing, it doesn't really convey... we're not matching this value to this element, liek it does in VT<br>
&lt;TabAtkins> fantasai: it's "this function should match across all elements", different concept<br>
&lt;bkardell_> thisfunctionshouldmatchacrossallelements<br>
&lt;TabAtkins> astearns: should we resolve on 'element-shared'?<br>
&lt;TabAtkins> fantasai: element-shared sounds weird<br>
&lt;bkardell_> I think I disagree all elements sounds more obv<br>
&lt;TabAtkins> straw poll: 1) element-shared, 2) all-elements, 3) both of these suck, i have a better idea<br>
&lt;TabAtkins> 1<br>
&lt;schenney> 1<br>
&lt;ydaniv> just "shared"?<br>
&lt;astearns> 1<br>
&lt;bkardell_> 1<br>
&lt;Kurt> 1<br>
&lt;fantasai> 2, but I wish I could pick 3<br>
&lt;miriam> 2<br>
&lt;alisonmaher> 1<br>
&lt;bramus> 1<br>
&lt;ydaniv> 1<br>
&lt;oriol> Maybe 3) shared-across-elements? Or 2)<br>
&lt;vmpstr> (abstain)<br>
&lt;kizu> 2<br>
&lt;dbaron> 1 (weakly)<br>
&lt;dbaron> (what about across-elements?)<br>
&lt;fantasai> +1 dbaron<br>
&lt;oriol> Not clear if across-elements is varying across elements or caching across elements<br>
&lt;kbabbitt> match-across-elements ?<br>
&lt;fantasai> fantasai: match-elements ?<br>
&lt;fantasai> TabAtkins: too close to v-t-n: match-element<br>
&lt;fantasai> ydaniv: by-property?<br>
&lt;dholbert> (I'm not particularly enthusiastic about either of the options but I don't have a better suggestion )<br>
&lt;emilio> (same as dholbert)<br>
&lt;fantasai> PROPOSED: Go with element-shared for now, keep renaming issue open because we're all unhappy with it<br>
&lt;fantasai> RESOLVED: Go with element-shared for now, keep renaming issue open because many people are unhappy with it<br>
</details>


-- 
GitHub Notification of comment by css-meeting-bot
Please view or discuss this issue at https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11742#issuecomment-2755039081 using your GitHub account


-- 
Sent via github-notify-ml as configured in https://github.com/w3c/github-notify-ml-config

Received on Wednesday, 26 March 2025 16:33:10 UTC