- From: Mason Freed via GitHub <sysbot+gh@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 06 Mar 2025 17:32:05 +0000
- To: public-css-archive@w3.org
Minutes from the recent discussion at the CSSWG/WHATWG/OpenUI task force meeting: <details> <summary>Minutes from March 6, 2025</summary> <pre> 08:35 <hdv> topic: walkthrough of the new CSS forms spec 08:36 <hdv> tim: in a nutshell, main point of base appearance is so that authors have less things to override when they work on top of it 08:36 <hdv> tim: I added some examples that show how easily you can override fonts and colours 08:36 <hdv> tim: it will just inherit if you put appearance:base on them 08:37 <hdv> tim: the spec also introduces pseudo elements, including for pickers, and for specific parts of the most common parts of different form controls 08:38 <hdv> tim: I'm curious to get this group's feedback. Curious to know if this is going in the right direction. Main reason I am asking is because I'd like to push this to first public working draft 08:38 <fantasai> https://drafts.csswg.org/css-forms-1/ 08:38 <lwarlow> q+ 08:38 * Zakim sees lwarlow on the speaker queue 08:39 <hdv> masonf: haven't had a chance to review it in detail, I did skim it. Looks great in terms of covering all the controls and the styles look good. 08:39 <hdv> masonf: my concern is that the anatomy that the pseudos use is defined so that you know x is inside of y and can understand whether something is, like, flexbox container 08:40 <hdv> s/is/could be/ 08:40 <hdv> annevk: wouldn't composability require markup changes as well? 08:40 <past> q? 08:40 * Zakim sees lwarlow on the speaker queue 08:40 <hdv> masonf: yes, different HTML 08:41 <hdv> annevk: I thought we discussed that in the past and landed on making new markup changes… if at that point appearance:base was already there we'd need to move the base stylesheet with those changes 08:41 <hdv> masonf: technically speaking I think you're right, but the difficult part is the confusing developer. There'll be a fanfare when this launches, if we launch one range control now and another a few weeks later would be confusing? 08:42 <hdv> annevk: if now we introduce 'you can style form controls that you already know', and then introduce 'we now added new features and everything is compat with before' 08:42 <hdv> tim: re mason's earlier question: the structure is defined, more precisely for form controls, less so for others, goal is to have them defined 08:43 <masonf> q+ 08:43 * Zakim sees lwarlow, masonf on the speaker queue 08:43 <hdv> tim: I think it's worthwhile to focus on pseudo elements as a first step. So that authors use as many of the tools as possible before we implement the inside of the control 08:43 <hdv> tim: one possible issue with that is accessibility, often custom markup can mess up accessibility 08:43 <past> q? 08:43 * Zakim sees lwarlow, masonf on the speaker queue 08:43 <hdv> tim: so I want to make sure we give developers simpler tools first and then the more advanced tools 08:43 <past> ack lwarlow 08:43 * Zakim sees masonf on the speaker queue 08:44 <hdv> lwarlow: I read through the draft in detail… I think it is going in the right direction, even if there's details to work out 08:44 <jensimmons> q+ 08:44 * Zakim sees masonf, jensimmons on the speaker queue 08:44 <hdv> lwarlow: in terms of extra markup, for me the two key bits… select and data list (combobox style thing), provided we can get the markup bits there, which we can because not void elements, that would be great 08:45 <hdv> lwarlow: while not super dynamic, it probably addresses most of what developers wouldw want 08:45 *** ntim (~uid105247@ecc4d82f.public.cloak) has joined the channel 08:45 <hdv> lwarlow: provided content properties work on in most places that'd cover most use cases I've come across 08:46 <hdv> masonf: thanks for working to define the anatomy, great news 08:46 <past> ack masonf 08:46 * Zakim sees jensimmons on the speaker queue 08:46 <hdv> masonf: I agree with your comment tim, that it's enough to do the pseudos first 08:46 <smaug> q+ 08:46 * Zakim sees jensimmons, smaug on the speaker queue 08:47 <hdv> masonf: should we add, to our design principles, what percentage we're aiming for? 08:47 * fantasai q+ to talk about ramps 08:47 * Zakim sees jensimmons, smaug, fantasai on the speaker queue 08:47 <hdv> masonf: personally I think it's like 95%, that should be doable, and that's probably what we cna do 08:47 <hdv> s/cna/can 08:48 <hdv> masonf: I'm still worried about doing this in two steps, for select we did markup and pseudos at the same time 08:48 <past> q? 08:48 * Zakim sees jensimmons, smaug, fantasai on the speaker queue 08:48 <hdv> zcorpan: haven't read in detail yet, but wanted to say I agree with the direction of the spec, looks like a useful set of features for web developers 08:48 <ntim> q+ to answer to mason 08:48 * Zakim sees jensimmons, smaug, fantasai, ntim on the speaker queue 08:49 <hdv> zcorpan: as for discussion on when to support markup changes: seems reasonable to be able to do that later for some controls 08:49 <hdv> ack jen 08:49 * Zakim sees smaug, fantasai, ntim on the speaker queue 08:49 * fantasai q- later 08:49 * Zakim sees smaug, ntim, fantasai on the speaker queue 08:49 <past> ack jensimmons 08:49 * Zakim sees smaug, ntim, fantasai on the speaker queue 08:50 <hdv> jensimmons: interesting question re how much we do in stages… to my team it's really important to do the 'appearance:base' at once across all form controls and not control by control 08:51 <hdv> jensimmons: Open UI has come up with a really good way to make select happen first 08:51 <hdv> jensimmons: but other kinds of major revisions, can and should happen whenever they happen to work out well 08:52 <hdv> jensimmons: Tim's draft doesn't include popovers, we don't want to do all work at once 08:52 <past> ack smaug 08:52 * Zakim sees ntim, fantasai on the speaker queue 08:53 <lwarlow> q+ 08:53 * Zakim sees ntim, fantasai, lwarlow on the speaker queue 08:53 <hdv> olli: people really want to customise @@@ 08:53 <smaug> https://2024.stateofhtml.com/en-US/usage/#html_functionality_features 08:53 <past> ack ntim 08:53 <Zakim> ntim, you wanted to answer to mason 08:53 * Zakim sees fantasai, lwarlow on the speaker queue 08:53 <hdv> s/olli/smaug 08:54 <hdv> tim: re timing… I don't think developers will be confused if the new things we do later are clearly new capabilities that we do independently 08:54 <hdv> s/tim/ntim 08:55 <hdv> masonf: if we ship appearance:base for all these things and later more… like meter, we don't know how to add parts in there, we might find out later… how do we make it opt in? 08:55 * jensimmons I really wish we would use another conference tool for these meetings. CSSWG uses Zoom. 08:55 <hdv> masonf: would you later optin to it with, like appearance-meter:base ? 08:55 <hdv> masonf: how do we optin to future good stuff? 08:56 *** annevk (~annevk@a7a68d30.publics.cloak) has joined the channel 08:56 <hdv> ntim: if you think there are use cases that are not addressed with current proposal for in page control, feel free to file issues against the csswg repo 08:56 <past> q? 08:56 * Zakim sees fantasai, lwarlow on the speaker queue 08:56 <hdv> ntim: ideally we want to do all this at once so that there are no separate opt ins 08:56 <past> ack lwarlow 08:56 * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue 08:57 <hdv> lwarlow: for inputs, if we did markup changes, that would by definition HTML ways to optin… so really would be void els like meter 08:57 <hdv> s/void/nonvoid 08:57 <jensimmons> q? 08:57 * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue 08:57 <jensimmons> q+ 08:57 * Zakim sees fantasai, jensimmons on the speaker queue 08:58 <hdv> lwarlow: don't think base appearance optin is really the optin for composability? 08:58 * fantasai q- later 08:58 * Zakim sees jensimmons, fantasai on the speaker queue 08:58 <hdv> masonf: it changes the style though 08:58 <hdv> lwarlow: there's nothing stopping appearance auto doing someting with markup 08:58 <hdv> annevk: that's a big thing we pushed for, to have things separate, markup changes on their own independent of how things are styled 08:59 <fantasai> +1 annevk 08:59 <hdv> annevk: so that we can have incremental changes to control. This also applies to how we “reimagine redoing select” 08:59 <past> ack jensimmons 08:59 * Zakim sees fantasai on the speaker queue 09:00 <hdv> jensimmons: it was strange to me to hear masonf articulate the optin mechanism for select… the idea of having to use appearance:base-select to get HTML to work, seems like a violation of separation of concerns, can't think of anything else that works that way 09:00 <hdv> jensimmons: if select is working this way, that opens up the freedom to change HTML and add capabilities to HTML 09:01 <hdv> jensimmons: that developers can use without worrying about changes 09:01 <past> ack fantasai 09:01 <Zakim> fantasai, you wanted to talk about ramps 09:01 <hdv> ack fantas 09:01 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 09:01 * Zakim sees no one on the speaker queue 09:01 <hdv> fantasai: we should think about not does it solve all problems, but focus on does it fix the problems we already have with HTML 09:03 <hdv> fantasai: I'd like everyone to think about… is this a draft that is going in the right direction? obviously there is lack of detail and there are open details 09:03 <fantasai> s/details/issues/ 09:03 * hdv thanks, tired :D 09:03 *** keithamus (~keithamus@a7a68d30.publics.cloak) has quit (Client closed connection) 09:04 <fantasai> fantasai: But are we ready for publishing and official First Public Working Draft? Let's try to answer that in the next week or two. 09:04 <past> Thank you hdv! 09:04 * fantasai thanks :) 09:04 <fantasai> s/have with HTML/have with the HTML we already have. As we extend HTML, then of course the CSS model will expand, too./ 09:05 <fantasai> fantasai: FPWD is a statement to the world that we are working on this, and in this rough direction. It's just the start of continuing work. 09:06 <fantasai> fantasai: But we want to have a draft that shows clearly the scope of that continuing work, and the direction it's going in. </pre> </details> -- GitHub Notification of comment by mfreed7 Please view or discuss this issue at https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/11854#issuecomment-2704507648 using your GitHub account -- Sent via github-notify-ml as configured in https://github.com/w3c/github-notify-ml-config
Received on Thursday, 6 March 2025 17:32:06 UTC