- From: CSS Meeting Bot via GitHub <sysbot+gh@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 24 Sep 2024 00:30:01 +0000
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The CSS Working Group just discussed `[css-display-4] Should the reading-order-items property apply to tables in addition to flex and grid layouts?`. <details><summary>The full IRC log of that discussion</summary> <astearns> PaulG: I’m in favor<br> <fantasai> scribenick: fantasai<br> <fantasai> TabAtkins: Current thread has folks suggesting not to apply to tables, because screenreaders have robust handling of tables<br> <fantasai> [AdrianRoseli also said this]<br> <Lionel_Wolberger> zakim, who is here?<br> <Zakim> Present: TabAtkins, dbaron, zcorpan, dandclark, tantek, sanketj_, cwilso, vmpstr, keithamus, khush, lea, jensimmons, noamr, rachelandrew, ydaniv, miriam, past, emilio, moonira,<br> <Zakim> ... ethanjv, bkardell_, kbabbitt, kzms, oriol, ntim, dholbert, PaulG, Lionel_Wolberger, Angela, CharlesL, matatk, janina, kizu, Nigel_Megitt, flackr<br> <Zakim> On IRC I see moonira, Roy, Lionel_Wolberger, masonf, karlcow, nigel, tink, Di, CharlesL, janina1, zcorpan, Angela, khush, kbabbitt, matatk, florian_irc, PaulG, miketaylr, siye,<br> <Zakim> ... ntim, oriol, atrigent__, kschmi, bkardell_, lea, kizu, past, RRSAgent, Zakim, sanketj, sylvaing_, shans_, Rossen-, leaverou_, projecto-, Francis_Storr, flackr, kzms2,<br> <Zakim> ... ondrejkonec, Krinkle, cmp, jbroman, dbaron, jcraig, foolip, tusf, keithamus, github-bot, jamesn, hyojin_, cabanier, geheimnis`, zrhoffman, CSSWG_LogBot, dustinm, fantasai,<br> <Zakim> ... vmpstr, bramus<br> <dbaron> s/Roseli/Roselli/<br> <matatk> q?<br> <fantasai> PaulG: It could be helpful for responsive tables, where the rendering changes<br> <fantasai> PaulG: if author has control over the flow<br> <fantasai> PaulG: That may be something to spend time on a demo<br> <matatk> q+<br> <zcorpan> q+<br> <fantasai> fantasai: One possible way forward would be to not apply if <table> rendered as table, but if rendering as grid/flex apply it<br> <PaulG> Adrian's responsive table https://adrianroselli.com/2017/11/a-responsive-accessible-table.html<br> <fantasai> gregwhitworth: Do you get accessibility of tables using table display on DIVs?<br> <fantasai> TabAtkins: no<br> <matatk> q?<br> <gregwhitworth> q+<br> <fantasai> matatk: I understand what Paul's saying about consistency and those cases, but also understand what Adrian's saying about having a well-defined model for this<br> <fantasai> matatk: we don't want to get into a situation where devs think they have to put reading-order on everything<br> <fantasai> ... and they're duplicating what the system could do better than they can<br> <fantasai> ... don't want to reinvent that<br> <fantasai> ... Elika, your solution sounds reasonable ; but what if it looks like a table but done differently?<br> <fantasai> ... from our perspective, we have several different edge cases to think about<br> <fantasai> ... also some reasonable connections for a11y testing and AT industry<br> <fantasai> ... so can ask people about it<br> <fantasai> ... also in-house we have ARIA WG<br> <fantasai> ... APA's role would be to coordinate that broader review<br> <fantasai> ... lots of good points on all the sides; but could be an impactful change<br> <fantasai> ... so give us some homework :)<br> <matatk> q?<br> <matatk> ack me<br> <matatk> ack zcorpan<br> <fantasai> zcorpan: What is the screenreader behavior if you have a <table> element but you change the CSS to display: something else<br> <fantasai> ... do they still use table mode to navigate that, or do you get whatever reading mode of the display type?<br> <fantasai> matatk: excellent question<br> <fantasai> tink: I believe unless 'display: none', has no impact on a11y tree<br> <fantasai> matatk: what about for grid?<br> <fantasai> matatk: we'll need to investigate<br> <fantasai> zcorpan: I think that would inform what to do here<br> <fantasai> ... because if behavior is still using table mode, then reading-flow shouldn't apply<br> <gregwhitworth> ack gregwhitworth<br> <matatk> q?<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think the default value of reading-flow should continue to do what we do today, so if display changes it has no effect<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: If you style it with display:flex *and* apply reading-flow, we could consider it having an effect<br> <gregwhitworth> q+<br> <matatk> q?<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: I could see reasons to restyle <table> with Grid Becuase you wanna do something fancy, but want to preserve the a11y affordances from it being a table<br> <matatk> ack fantasai<br> <matatk> ack gregwhitworth<br> <fantasai> gregwhitworth: For tables done without an actual <table> element, how often are they giving the expected AT experience?<br> <kizu> q+<br> <fantasai> ... Do thinks make it worse?<br> <fantasai> matatk: Question is, if you make a custom table out of DIVs and aria, what experience do you give?<br> <fantasai> gregwhitworth: How commonly would people do that in practice, using DIV-based tables + ARIA?<br> <fantasai> PaulG: Common in my work because we deal with very large virtualized tables.<br> <fantasai> ... don't know how common across the Web, but in FinTech it's quite normal<br> <fantasai> gregwhitworth: Do people do it correctly from a11y standpoint, in your experience?<br> <fantasai> PaulG: Lots of walled gardens, can't see in them ; but in ours we try our best<br> <fantasai> matatk: it's certainly doable, and works pretty well when done properly<br> <fantasai> gregwhitworth: 5yrs from now, could we deprecate <table>?<br> <fantasai> ... responsive tables is a common ask<br> <fantasai> ... how can we help authors fall into the pit of success?<br> <matatk> q?<br> <fantasai> ... because more people will lean into this over time<br> <matatk> ack kizu<br> <Lionel_Wolberger> q?<br> <fantasai> kizu: Cases where there's a table with display: flex or grid<br> <fantasai> ... usually done at transition point, or to use features of a grid<br> <fantasai> ... sometimes authors had to apply role to element because browsers would lose it otherwise<br> <fantasai> ... a lot of issues<br> <fantasai> ... sometimes browsers lose this role, especially with 'display: contents'<br> <fantasai> ... It would make a table display: grid or flex, then change order of rows<br> <fantasai> ... with reading-flow we might want to reorder rows or colu,ns<br> <fantasai> s/colu,ns/columns/<br> <matatk> q?<br> <matatk> ack fantasai<br> <Zakim> fantasai, you wanted to ask why it's done<br> <fantasai> fantasai: I think if we need more capabilities for responsive tables, we should add those capabilities<br> <fantasai> ... not require shifting to DIVs with ARIA because that's hard to get right<br> </details> -- GitHub Notification of comment by css-meeting-bot Please view or discuss this issue at https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/9922#issuecomment-2369856510 using your GitHub account -- Sent via github-notify-ml as configured in https://github.com/w3c/github-notify-ml-config
Received on Tuesday, 24 September 2024 00:30:02 UTC