- From: CSS Meeting Bot via GitHub <sysbot+gh@w3.org>
- Date: Wed, 08 Nov 2023 17:28:15 +0000
- To: public-css-archive@w3.org
The CSS Working Group just discussed `Let’s Define CSS 4`, and agreed to the following: * `RESOLVED: The CSSWG supports this CG's efforts in defining levels for CSS as a way for the community to understand batches of CSS features.` <details><summary>The full IRC log of that discussion</summary> <una> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ThJggjnuCbz94ckK5ds2UiedyrTrT5Y6V00RVTGgVEw/edit#heading=h.ynsedw1i03ds<br> <TabAtkins> una: I'm sharing a window with a presentation, link in chat<br> <TabAtkins> una: So issue 4770 started this discussion and this CG, but it's been going on for years before that<br> <una> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1V3kyGahIl2P2i2J0dlHYhT97ssdfqyQuGpQtUar1aqE/edit#slide=id.g28bb9aacdd6_0_576<br> <TabAtkins> una: quick overview of why this is important and what our discussions were<br> <TabAtkins> una: Ultimately CSS3 is a grouping of features covered in "level 3 specs", covers a wide range of features<br> <TabAtkins> una: So successful that it's still the most common term used to refer to "modern CSS"<br> <TabAtkins> una: It's how people teach CSS, recruit for CSS jobs, etc<br> <TabAtkins> una: Not hard to find CSS3 in job requirements, in teaching syllabuses<br> <TabAtkins> una: Saw an oklch() with CSS3 logo attached to it<br> <TabAtkins> una: If you search for CSS on google, about half the courses have the CSS3 logo in some way<br> <TabAtkins> una: So easy to see the impact of the term even today<br> <TabAtkins> una: Despite this being a fairly specific set of features that don't line up with today's features.<br> <TabAtkins> una: css3.now lists these features, but that's not how the community talks about it<br> <TabAtkins> una: How far we've come as an ecosystem, we ahve more features than we ever thought possible when CSS3 started.<br> <TabAtkins> una: CQ, layouts, interactions on the web platform<br> <TabAtkins> una: So important to change how people talk about CSS<br> <TabAtkins> una: Post from dev graham about "what is modern CSS"<br> <TabAtkins> una: "modern" is too broad of a definition, can't pinpoint a point in time or specific set of features<br> <TabAtkins> una: So that's hte CG. Initially called CSS4 CG, but might be beyond that, renamed to CSS Next<br> <TabAtkins> una: Looks to label features in a clear colloquial way to help people understand CSS across the ecosystem<br> <TabAtkins> una: Other options are Baseline or the CSS Snapshot. Great but don't think they provide the same impact as "CSS3"<br> <TabAtkins> una: Also runs into the same problems as calling something "modern"<br> <TabAtkins> una: They just don't have the same cachet either - ES2020, 2021, 2022 vs ES6<br> <fantasai> +1 the snapshots aren't appropriate for this use<br> <TabAtkins> una: So using "CSS" or "Modern CSS" just lacks the meaning we need<br> <TabAtkins> una: Better labels have value, even just from marketing standpoint<br> <TabAtkins> una: We talked about some goals<br> <TabAtkins> una: First, helping devs learn about CSS<br> <TabAtkins> una: Helping teachers teach about CSS<br> <TabAtkins> una: Employers hire about CSS<br> <TabAtkins> una: Help community understadn the evolution<br> <TabAtkins> una: Some non-goals<br> <TabAtkins> una: Affecting the specs themselves.<br> <TabAtkins> una: We're not doing anything with the specs themselves.<br> <TabAtkins> una: Also out of scope is official documentation, we're not writing docs<br> <TabAtkins> una: And not doing any spec work (should be done in the spec groups)<br> <TabAtkins> una: And not defining best practices or managing compat data<br> <TabAtkins> una: Our scope, isntead, is figuring out the community's understanding of CSS feature levels, developing and naming those groups, and educating about those levels.<br> <florian> q+<br> <TabAtkins> una: So far our resolution has been:<br> <TabAtkins> una: Here's the CSS3 set of specs<br> <TabAtkins> una: Roughly 2009-2012<br> <TabAtkins> una: CSS4 seems to work out nicely as things that postdate CSS3 for about 5 years and are things that are now stable<br> <TabAtkins> una: and CSS5 is new growing features, just landing<br> <TabAtkins> una: In the future CSS6 will be early-stage features just now in planning or not even there yet.<br> <TabAtkins> una: As part of this work we want to do some research, so we did some early sorting of features into CSS4 vs 5<br> <TabAtkins> una: Still working on the final analysis of this<br> <TabAtkins> una: So we want to do a community pulse check, checking with the user group and do some user research.<br> <TabAtkins> una: In terms of CSSWG, we're hoping for a few things<br> <TabAtkins> una: First, awareness of what we're doing, hopefully a positive signal from y'all<br> <TabAtkins> una: Another is general feedback, particularly in our early sorting of categories<br> <TabAtkins> una: In the process of making a prototype of the reseach<br> <chrishtr> This is an awesome proposal, and so needed. I love it!<br> <TabAtkins> una: Finally, join meetings - biweekly (correct meaning: every biweek), Mondays 8am PT/11 ET, 5pm CET. An hour before the CSS meeting, but on Mondays<br> <florian> q?<br> <Rossen_> ack florian<br> <TabAtkins> florian: I'm supportive of the overall effort. Think I like what you said about CSS4 onwards<br> <TabAtkins> florian: A little issue about CSS3 - we have a dfn of that but it doesn't match what you said.<br> <TabAtkins> florian: Currently our CSS3 definition says "everything after CSS2", so it can't be an immutable category.<br> <chrishtr> q+<br> <TabAtkins> florian: So someone needs to change the dfn of CSS3, either us or y'all<br> <TabAtkins> (Fine with just changing it, our dfn was based on "we're not doing any categories anymore")<br> <Rossen_> ack chrishtr<br> <TabAtkins> chrishtr: I think this is a great proposal and v important.<br> <TabAtkins> chrishtr: The impact of HTML5 on people's interest in the web, and getting momentum for people to build things that previously people didn't think were possible<br> <TabAtkins> chrishtr: This has tremendous potential to move the midnshare to make people recognize CSS has really advanced in leaps and bounds.<br> <fantasai> Slides: https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-archive/2023Nov/att-0002/CSS-Next_Community_Group.pdf<br> <fantasai> Archived link ^<br> <Rossen_> ack fantasai<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: +1 to everything Una said, really excited you've picked up this idea<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: super supportive of what y'all're doing<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think if there's any conflict with our Snapshot we can just fix it<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: And once the CG dfns have settled down and they're happy with it, I think we shoudl publish it thru CSSWG as a Note<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: So have /TR/CSS3, /TR/CSS4, etc as a Note matching what the CG comes up with<br> <Rossen_> ack fantasai<br> <chrishtr> resolved, ship it!<br> <chrishtr> :)<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: For the Snapshots naming, using the dated versions of the snapshots as a sub for this, that doesn't really work for this. They're designed for a different purpose.<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: Even if they were better named they just wouldn't be suitable.<br> <florian> +1<br> <una> +1<br> <TabAtkins> Rossen_: Do we need a resolution?<br> <TabAtkins> una: I think it would be a positive<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: proposed: The CSSWG supports this CG's efforts in defining levels for CSS as a way for the community to understand batches of CSS properties.<br> <florian> +1<br> <TabAtkins> +1<br> <fantasai> s/properties/features<br> <TabAtkins> RESOLVED: The CSSWG supports this CG's efforts in defining levels for CSS as a way for the community to understand batches of CSS features.<br> <fantasai> s/understand/understand and communicate about/<br> <TabAtkins> chrishtr: Shoudl Una bring back specific proposals to the group about what is CSS4?<br> <TabAtkins> Rossen_: It's all in public, she can open an issue<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: I think if Una has stuff she specifically wants reviewed, an issue will ask us for a review<br> <TabAtkins> fantasai: And when the CG thinks they're done, they can ask us to publish it as a Note thru the WG<br> <florian> sgtm<br> </details> -- GitHub Notification of comment by css-meeting-bot Please view or discuss this issue at https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/4770#issuecomment-1802342332 using your GitHub account -- Sent via github-notify-ml as configured in https://github.com/w3c/github-notify-ml-config
Received on Wednesday, 8 November 2023 17:28:18 UTC