- From: NFSL2001 via GitHub <sysbot+gh@w3.org>
- Date: Thu, 29 Sep 2022 12:55:04 +0000
- To: public-css-archive@w3.org
@fireattack > Chinese users will see different (wrong) size of English content when using system-ui. I still does not understand why you say the Latin part of Microsoft YaHei is bad. It is just based on Segoe UI and slightly enlarged to match with Chinese characters (due to visual differences), and there is nothing inherently bad with Microsoft YaHei. Font size is a complex matter and you don't even get the same size on the same platform: did you checked Tahoma from Windows XP/7 Classic theme? SF Pro on Mac have slightly higher x-height compared to Segoe UI, and on the same screen SF Pro appears larger than Segoe UI too just like Microsoft YaHei, so does this makes SF Pro also a bad font? Designating a font as "bad" isn't only just what you think looks good. As far as I know, so far on the internet across English and Chinese communities, no one is saying the Latin part of Microsoft YaHei is bad. There is simply just no "correct" size for text; what is given by `system-ui` is what your OS has already been using on its interface. > ???? The whole discussion is about issues of system-ui for Chinese Windows (or Japanese Windows) and now you test on English Windows? Sorry as I am confused. I do not have much time to test across multiple languages and settings. I will acknowledge that `sans-serif` is dependent on the browser, while `system-ui` depends on the system. > `system-ui` works by simply applying MSYH (Simp. Chinese), Yu Gothic UI or Meiryo (Japanese), or Segoe UI (English) to all the content, regardless if there is a language tag or not (it also ignores display language setting of Chrome). Yes, that is correct. However, the language tagging issue is a problem on Windows Win32 API, it has nothing to do with how CSS specs define `system-ui`. Mac and Android will present the correct locale using language tag (Screenshot above). >> There is no point to replace system-ui for something you want > I.. what? You mentioned replacing `system-ui` as "intrusive" and tried to replace it using `@font-face`. It is just like saying you want to replace `serif` (or `cursive`) using `@font-face`. >> all sites must stop using system-ui, >> CSS should drop support for system-ui > No one is suggesting any of these. You (and infinnie) are suggesting all the major sites to stop using `system-ui` on various issues on GitHub. This is the CSS drafting repository; suggesting users should stop using `system-ui` is essentially just trying to deprecate the use of `system-ui` in CSS. >> shove your opinion through all other user's throat > No one is doing that, either.All the websites listed above are too big to not deal with system-ui's drawbacks, because they have sizable Chinese users. Which is exactly why they "do write your own font stack" as you suggested. As mentioned above, there is nothing inherently bad with Microsoft YaHei, just you saying that the Latin (and kana) parts are "bad". As a native Chinese/English user, I do not see any problems using the Latin part from Microsoft YaHei (apart from apostrophe/quotation marks; easy to fix with CSS `unicode-range`). I did not learned Japanese, so the kana part is still up for debate; but do remember this "issue" you're saying is an aesthetics issue, which will vary from person to person, and it's you that's saying Microsoft YaHei looks bad. Also, I just noticed that Japanese on Windows 10 have been changed from Meiryo to Yu Gothic UI. Meiryo's Latin part is based on Tahoma but stretched wider, while Yu Gothic UI's Latin part is based on Segoe UI with no stretching applied. Does it make sense when Japanese users say that Meiryo looks better than Yu Gothic UI, when you are saying that Microsoft YaHei looks worse than Segoe UI?  As mentioned above, it is about personal aesthetics at this point rather than the font being inherently bad (e.g. SimSun bitmap text at 12pt) and everyone will have their opinions on the issue. It is in no way that one person should just let everyone stop using `system-ui` because their system font looks bad. > Yes it sucks `system-ui` didn't magically work in all cases but that's the reality you can't simply dismiss. From a technical view, `system-ui` is in perfect working order according to the CSS spec: use the system font. You don't like what you look at? Change your system font; it'll change `system-ui`. /s But for real, this issue is not the burden for the W3C CSS working group. Stopping the use of `system-ui` just because the font choice on Windows looks bad for some languages isn't logical. If Windows never change the font again (or make more bad choices), should all developers stop using `system-ui`? What do you suggest the W3C CSS working group to do with `system-ui` looks bad/undesirable for some users? A definition change? Or to deprecate `system-ui`? -- GitHub Notification of comment by NightFurySL2001 Please view or discuss this issue at https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/3658#issuecomment-1262237139 using your GitHub account -- Sent via github-notify-ml as configured in https://github.com/w3c/github-notify-ml-config
Received on Thursday, 29 September 2022 12:55:06 UTC