- From: Marat Tanalin via GitHub <sysbot+gh@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 11 Mar 2022 00:10:54 +0000
- To: public-css-archive@w3.org
The `fantasai` prefix is really confusing, at least until you see a different second name after it after having already read 20 lines and thinking they were by fantasai. <details> <summary>Something like this would probably be more clear</summary> <markdown> Topic: @when vs @if * lea: We all know that we have at-rule to unify all our conditionals: @media, @supports, new things * lea: Right now called @when, only because @if conflicts with SASS * lea: I don't think that's sufficient reason to go against the convention of almost all computer languages * lea: Almost everything uses "if" * lea: We are going against any precedent that CSS authors are likely to be familiar with * lea: Even spreadsheets use IF * lea: Whereas @when would need to be used specifically for CSS, and it seems really weird * lea: 10 years down the line will be a weirdness in CSS * lea: and we might not even remember that SASS was using it * lea: There are ways for SASS to get around it * lea: Not the same as when conflicts with libraries that are actively running on websites * lea: e.g. when TC39 decided on a different name with protoptye * lea: but SASS is a preprocessor. It's much easier to migrate syntax when preprocessing before website is deployed * lea: when you run website using SASS< you're not running SASS, you're running the generated CSS * lea: The only conflict is when SASS itself runs * lea: easier to get around * lea: I don't think we should do something that decreases usability for the core language, for millions of CSS authors, because of this 3rd party tool that uses @if * lea: If it was the same usability, then why not be nice and use @when * lea: but I think it's significantly less usable to use @when, and I don't think the tradeoff is worth it * TabAtkins q+ * Rossen_ +1 * bmathwig +1 * TabAtkins: I very strongly disagree with the argument Lea just made here. * tantek +1 Lea * TabAtkins: In general, I don't. * bradk +1 Lea * TabAtkins: Generally CSS should make the best decision for its future, and everything else is secondary * TabAtkins: that said, it's not absolute * TabAtkins: we do sometimes make decisions based on the impact on the ecosystem * TabAtkins: authors are more important than purity * TabAtkins: we have to consider how bad it is for authors generally, vs authors using the tool * chris +1 Lea (and +1 the original resolution, which specified @if) * TabAtkins: we made that decision e.g. in grid line names, switching from parens to square brackets * TabAtkins: here the impact on SASS far oughtweighs the impact on future CSS authors * lea all of you plus-one-ing maybe could also q-plus yourselves and speak up? :) * TabAtkins: I've talked with Natalie ??? main develper of SASS * bkardell_ fwiw i do not feel that it is worse. If we took sass off the table entirely I'm not sure I have very strong feels on if/when - both feel very learnable and not quite exactly comparable to other things * TabAtkins: her thought is that if CSS adopts @if with different semantics than SASS's @if, would be a major problem * lea q+ * TabAtkins: have problems upgrading SASS for much more minor issue sthan this * TabAtkins: If 'if' was the only reasonable name, different case. * TabAtkins: but "when" is used in various places, e.g. the new JS proposal (use of when predates me) * miriam q+ * TabAtkins: used in Ruby and common LISP as variant on "if" * TabAtkins: iT's easy enough to understand, perfectly serviceable word, makes sense in English * dbaron s/Natalie ???/Natalie Weizenbaum/ * TabAtkins: so harm to significant section of authors using SASS right now * TabAtkins: vastly outweighs harm to future by using if * TabAtkins: I would formally object to using @if * TabAtkins: this would be extraordinarily bad * iank_ Is it possible to get Natalie on the call? * Rossen_ TabAtkins, there's nothing wrong going down the FO path for this * lea: CSS has an extension mechanism, prefixes, and any software that wants to extend the language can use prefixes * Rossen_ q? * lea: SASS didn't do that. They could have done @-if or things * lea: How far are we going to go to avoid clashing with SASS? if we add loops do we avoid using "for"? * lea: I disagree strongly that "if" and "when" are roughly equivalent in suability * tantek +1 Lea * lea: even if they were equivalent in English * bradk Isn’t sass @if different in that it doesn’t normally have the parentheses that we would require? * lea: "if" has much stronger consistency * lea: Also in English, when implies something is time-based, whereas 'if' does not * lea: many people in the thread, including native and non-native speakers * tantek +1 very much sold that "when" also implies time-semantic which is inappropriate here. * lea: expressed [confusion?] * lea: We have accommodated SASS in the past, but in cases where both options have equal usability * chris PostCSS also has @if (and also @else!) https://www.npmjs.com/package/postcss-conditionals * lea: I'm not sure how widely-used SASS is at this point anyway, community seems to be shifting to PostCSS * chris q+ * lea: I'm not going to make threats about objections, but I also feel very strongly about this * query tantek * miriam: Want to re-iterate Tab's suggestion that this would be pretty devastating to SASS if we made this change * miriam: and SASS is one of the larguest, most used tools in CSS * miriam: just went through adding "flashes", which was a massive hit * miriam: I can't claim to be unbiased, part of the SASS team * miriam: but I think causing that much disruption to such a widely-used tool isn't worth the few characters * miriam: I hope we can avoid doing that much damage * lea +1 Rossen_ * chris: SASS also has @else. Are we going to rename @else to @elif or @elsewhen or something else? * chris s/SASS/PostCSS * astearns: Out of time, Tab can you ask Natalie to comment? * astearns: scope of the damage has been assigned adjectives, but it would be nice to go through the details of what SASS would do if we chose @if * dbaron If we can't agree on English terms to use... at what point do we start using terms from other languages? * tantek I have a problem with object to allowing the design of CSS to be hamstrung or "made weird" by any legacy frameworks decisions, especially by frameworks that are pre-processing only and are thus not aprt of any archived content on the web </markdown> </details> -- GitHub Notification of comment by Marat-Tanalin Please view or discuss this issue at https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/6684#issuecomment-1064641633 using your GitHub account -- Sent via github-notify-ml as configured in https://github.com/w3c/github-notify-ml-config
Received on Friday, 11 March 2022 00:10:56 UTC