Re: [csswg-drafts] [css-fonts] Proposal for a new generic font family "Rounded" (#4605)

The CSS Working Group just discussed `[css-fonts] Proposal for a new generic font family "Rounded" #4605`.

<details><summary>The full IRC log of that discussion</summary>
&lt;dael> Topic: [css-fonts] Proposal for a new generic font family "Rounded" #4605<br>
&lt;dael> github:<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: myles can you summerize?<br>
&lt;dael> myles: Sure.<br>
&lt;dael> myles: We got a bunch of font families, add a new one.<br>
&lt;dael> myles: 2 reasons in the issue. 1) we have UI rounded already. Makes sense to add rounded<br>
&lt;dael> myles: Backing up to talk about what rounded is.<br>
&lt;TabAtkins> Note particularly which talks about "rounded" having a simple consistent definition, and which is used as a typographic style across many languages.<br>
&lt;dael> myles: It's a typographic style where terminals of letters are circular<br>
&lt;dael> myles: 2nd argument is it's common typographic style in Japan. If we've got serif/sanserif for the west this makes sense in Japanese context<br>
&lt;dael> florian: UI rounded not particularly Japanese, right?<br>
&lt;dael> myles: Correct<br>
&lt;TabAtkins> q+<br>
&lt;dael> florian: My feeling is this interacts a bit with a thing the spec says is possible, but not done, which is map generic font families to a set of fonts<br>
&lt;dael> florian: if you say rounded I would expect it in japanese and latin fonts, but what I think woudl happen is one or the other<br>
&lt;dael> myles: Not sure I agree. UI rounded is a UI style font. I don't think type of fonts here are for UI, but for toher purposes<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: I think sep. florian wants rounded to give rounded font<br>
&lt;AmeliaBR> q?<br>
&lt;florian> q+<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: I want to channel a question on the issue, do we expect different fonts between rounded and ui rounded. I'm aware of some fonts for windows cjk that are way optimized for small and htinner to allow better fit for overall UI that's closer between different scripts. THat's where ui and rounded will map differently.<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: last week talked about larger issue about generics.<br>
&lt;dael> TabAtkins: Rounded satisfies any reasonable constraints for generics. SOunds reasonable to me<br>
&lt;Rossen_> ack TabAtkins<br>
&lt;dael> myles: One prop criteria was 2 major OSs have built in rounded fonts. Is that true?<br>
&lt;dael> AmeliaBR: I think at least arial rounded is on windows. Might be MS office pack.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: I'm not sure off the top of my head. Could get back<br>
&lt;Rossen_> ack florian<br>
&lt;jfkthame> q+<br>
&lt;dael> florian: I think this is a good idea. Support it. Might be a generic font family that's meaningful across multiple scripts. THat's why I raised point that spec says you can map to sets of fonts. IN this case you should. Spec I'm fine, hoping people will do what spec allows<br>
&lt;fantasai> +1 to florian<br>
&lt;dael> myles: I understand your point now<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: I support what florian said<br>
&lt;Rossen_> ack fantasai<br>
&lt;Rossen_> ack j<br>
&lt;dael> jfkthame: I just checked windows standard list and there's nothing rounded there. I guess that must come from office.<br>
&lt;dael> myles: Are installations of office common enough that it should be considered built in?<br>
&lt;dael> florian: Yes<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: No comment<br>
&lt;dael> myles: serious about the requirement, though. I think it's legit that 2 OSs should have it built in.<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Clarify to say not nec built in, but a common config of OS<br>
&lt;dael> myles: Yes<br>
&lt;dael> florian: If you buy a computer and it's on it it counts<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Windows with MS Office installed is very common. Languages will vary by region anyway<br>
&lt;fantasai> s/Languages/Installations/<br>
&lt;fantasai> s/region anyway/region and language also/<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: From PoV of addition to generic fonts I'm hearing this makes sense. Some questions about how this will be impl and actual behavior. Not sure we need to define this now.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: Question here is does new generic rounded make sense to add<br>
&lt;dael> myles: If it can't be demo there are 2 common config with rounded fonts I think I would object<br>
&lt;dael> jfkthame: Hesitant adding any generic while we're heistent what generic fonts are for.<br>
&lt;dael> AmeliaBR: Agree with that. Whatever we think about rounded it's worth first discussing syntax and general overall design goals with CSS and what generic keywords mean<br>
&lt;dael> AmeliaBR: No pressing demand to add right now so let's take time and do right<br>
&lt;dbaron> My Windows 10 system does not have a font called "Arial Rounded", if that's what I'm supposed to be looking for...<br>
&lt;TabAtkins> +1 to Jen<br>
&lt;dael> jensimmons: Web front end dev use generics constantly, usually as a fallback font. Try and use something tightly controlled but generics are used as fallbacks constantly<br>
&lt;Rossen_> Arial Rounded is certainly part of Office fonts<br>
&lt;jensimmons> if "rounded" starts to mean something (if) — Authors will use it, gladly<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Draw attention to [missed]-san comment. They have been working on i18n and on jltf. Pointing out rounded is more significant in Japan and East Asia. Need to consider it. Also unlike other generics rounded is a style that exists so makes sense in that way as well<br>
&lt;TabAtkins> Confirmation that Arial Rounded is shipped with Office<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: He mentions both macOS and windows have those<br>
&lt;dael> florian: You may want to look for maru which is Japanese for rounded if you're searching for default rounded fonts<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Fonts in other writing systems it's likely to be much more common to find rounded. SHouldn't be biased to only consider if it's common in European installations<br>
&lt;jensimmons> +1 to that — need for international thinking<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: Are people convinced we should add this or not right now?<br>
&lt;dael> florian: I think we should add this, but we haven't decided the syntax. We might want to wrap a new family in a function so might want to wait a bit<br>
&lt;dael> myles: Rossen_ is right we don't need to decide on that. We can say we want a way to trigger a rounded font without deciding syntax<br>
&lt;jfkthame> q+<br>
&lt;dael> myles: I'm also willing to accept MS office as a common config so we've passed the critea and typographically it's valuable so I'm on board<br>
&lt;Rossen_> ack fantasai<br>
&lt;Zakim> fantasai, you wanted to mention kida-san's comment<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: We draft spec and we mark them so we can draft is and say we're not sure if it's compat yet.<br>
&lt;Rossen_> ack jfkthame<br>
&lt;fantasai> s/them/issues/<br>
&lt;fantasai> s/is and/it and/<br>
&lt;dael> jfkthame: If we're going to add a generic based on a font from MS Office that might be in tension with work going on to reduce fingerprintability with fonts shipped by system<br>
&lt;dael> myles: Two ideas on surface in tension but if goal is putting users in buckets and making sure none of small all users with MS Office is a pretty big bucket.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: We're at time for a break.<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: SHould we resolve?<br>
&lt;dael> AmeliaBR: On the general concept?<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Yeah<br>
&lt;dbaron> Windows version * office version might be smaller buckets though<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: Prop: Add the ability to have rounded fonts and we decide on syntax later<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: Placeholder syntax and sep issue<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: Prop: Add ability to expose and target rounded fonts. Syntax TBD<br>
&lt;dael> dbaron: Little nervous about fingerprinting. May need to consider versions. office by version is small buckets and office version + windows version is small.<br>
&lt;dael> myles: Font is only from office it's not a matrix, jsut office version<br>
&lt;dael> dbaron: Windows version from other things<br>
&lt;dael> dbaron: So we expose office version which might be a matrix against windows version<br>
&lt;dael> florian: Broader, though. It's maybe all versions before 2008 vs after<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: dbaron enough of a concern to hold off on resolution?<br>
&lt;dael> dbaron: Given discussion about font fingerprinting I'd prefer to hold<br>
&lt;dael> dbaron: TO respond to florian fonts have revisions. They're not atomic and unchanging. Could have differences across versions<br>
&lt;dael> florian: Yes. I would expect larger buckets than each version.<br>
&lt;dael> myles: How do we make progress on this?<br>
&lt;dael> AmeliaBR: Gets to issue of general purpose of generic fonts and how to move forward. If we add new generics rounded is logical. Security concerns are part of discussion about do we want more generics<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: We're going back into generic fonts topics. I want us to stop here. It's a fair point dbaron is raising to hold off. Sympathize with myles to find a way to progress.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: Let's have additional conversations about if this can be unwedged by what hte font metrics look like and are the buckets small enough to conern? If not we can resolve later.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: Outside the fingerprint issue people are fine<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: We won't resolve for now.<br>

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Received on Thursday, 7 May 2020 22:09:01 UTC