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Re: [csswg-drafts] [css-flexbox][css-grid] Choose a single option for resolving padding and margin percent values of grid/flex items

From: CSS Meeting Bot via GitHub <sysbot+gh@w3.org>
Date: Wed, 24 Jan 2018 18:00:41 +0000
To: public-css-archive@w3.org
Message-ID: <issue_comment.created-360220478-1516816839-sysbot+gh@w3.org>
The Working Group just discussed `Issue #2085`.

<details><summary>The full IRC log of that discussion</summary>
&lt;dael> Topic: Issue #2085<br>
&lt;astearns> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2085<br>
&lt;dael> github: https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/2085<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: We discussed ~1 month ago. I raised it before we locked down flexbox and grid. I wanted one behvaior for resolving hte block level padding and margins. Current spec allows to resolve those from corrisponding inline or block axis.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: In a little more css2.1 terms top and bottom margins resolve to either height or width. FF and Edge impl that we resolve from the same direction as the padding and margin. Webkit &amp; Blink impl the similar behavior to block. They resolve from width. THat enables the hack to have the aspect ratio on elements other than replaced.<br>
&lt;Rossen_> https://www.bloomberg.com/pursuits/travel<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: We've gone by for a couple years. Now that grid picking up we're seeing pretty bad compat issues<br>
&lt;Rossen_> https://thepeachtruck.com/blogs/the-peach-truck-kitchen<br>
&lt;Rossen_> https://maps.google.com/localguides/event/summit<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: here's a couple. If you have FF or Edge you can compare.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: A month ago we left that rachelandrew would write a blog. She did. Thank you.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: We got back quite a bit of opinions. They are kind of split. To summerize about 1/2 the people want to be able to spec on value and expect that padding and margin is the same.<br>
&lt;astearns> lost rossen<br>
&lt;Rossen_> getting back<br>
&lt;fantasai> https://wiki.csswg.org/planning/berlin-2018<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: While we wait. If you're planning to come to Berlin please put yourself on the wiki. If you're interested in air BnB let florian or I know.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: I'm back.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: Second part of the group advocated for keeping the behavior symetric<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: They basically wer emotivated beuase they don't want to learn the wacky way of resolving against something not the same.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: We are where we are. I listed some of those bad compat issues.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: One other point brought up is at this point there's quite a bit of usage in Chrome so this won't be easy for Chrome to back away unless they want the compat issues we have.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: Given where we are and the community is split I think the better service to the web is align on something which is at least consistant. For that reason I'm going to go and impl this behavior in the next version to Edge, to align to Chrome and Webkit, provided we can resolve to go with that.<br>
&lt;tantek> I thought we were going to give more time for a proposal for the aspect ratio stuff first?<br>
&lt;tantek> so we could eliminate that as an excuse<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: Last time we chatted TabAtkins was, I believe, also fine with going down to one behavior as long as there's impl interest. I'm committing to changing Edge so the only thing wuld be for FF to catch up.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: But we are not going to continue to put our users through this suboptimal experience.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: So I'm sorry I couldn't hold up for the new comers to CSS. It is what it is. So for UX we'll align with Chrome and Webkit.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: I want to put it back on the WG to resolve on one behavior and I mostly want to hear from FF since they'll be the only  ones left with the different behavior.<br>
&lt;dael> dbaron: I'd want to hear Mats' comments. I haven't spoken to him on this for a bit.<br>
&lt;dael> tantek: I'd like to hear from dholbert as well before FF has an opinion.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: I don't mind if we hold back, but at this point we're going to ship to be interop with webkit and blink behavior on our next version.<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: So this will put more pressure on your folks. But that doesn't mean you have to agree right now. Please chat.<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: One pattern I saw in the comments is a lot from the group supporting assymetic is that it initially doesn't make sense, but it is more useful more of the time in the end.<br>
&lt;dael> fantasai: I found that convincing.<br>
&lt;tantek> basically this is about giving in to compat right?<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: I also found it convincing. But given that everyone can only use that it's hard to argue the opposite.<br>
&lt;dael> rachelandrew: From talking to people I htink what you see if existing web dev think it's sensible and new people will find it strange. But I can understand the compat issue.<br>
&lt;dael> tantek: Only the oldest behavior...those of us that have been around 15-20 years would say that. Anyone who used positioning or flexbox/grid would see it as weird and different.<br>
&lt;dael> rachelandrew: Yeah. I'm jsut telling you what I'm hearing.<br>
&lt;Rossen_> +1 to tantek - this is exactly why I was fighting for so long and hard on the issue<br>
&lt;dael> tantek: I want to go on record to say I'm a little disappointed because this is an ex where the WG essentially failed by evidence of we're in a compat issue. It's not the first time, but I wanted to call it out. Every time we resolve to do it some way because a number of browsers do something and then websites depend on it and then we hit a threashold where other browsers are compelled to change.<br>
&lt;dael> tantek: I fully sympathize. But this a compat forced change. I don't think this is good for the model.<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: I would agree.<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Given that the discussion was evenly split and that we are going in the compat direction it seems this will end up with another switch like box sizing where people can opt into the more sane way.<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: We're nearly out oftime. Rossen_ do you want to put your intent in and tag dholbert and Mats?<br>
&lt;dael> Rossen_: I will. Iw anted the minutes into the issue before I do it. If we can resolve sooner rathr then later so we can make the spec changes that owuld be great.<br>
&lt;dael> tantek: I'd like to call this out as a meta issue for the F2F which is when we don't act on some ambig we spec due to compat. I feel this is the latest data point.<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Can you put it on the F2F agenda?<br>
&lt;dael> tantek: Yep.<br>
&lt;dael> astearns: Thanks everyone for calling in.<br>
</details>


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