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Re: Examples for double negatives AND Do we need to review the titles of our patterns?

From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
Date: Thu, 21 Jul 2022 07:17:10 -0400
To: "E.A. Draffan" <ead@ecs.soton.ac.uk>
Cc: Lisa Seeman <lisa1seeman@gmail.com>, public-cognitive-a11y-tf <public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>
Message-ID: <Ytk1tvd7e2KnQ+KZ@rednote.net>
Thanks, EA, for this pointer. I hope to read it soon, because I agree
that we should have this conversation in more depth.

I happen to be someone who loves words, perhaps a bit too much. I
appreciate the precision a fancy word like "orthopraxy" can provide, but
I also grok how that could pose a COGA challenge. I really do get it.

I personally think litotes is a powerful rhetorical tool I don't know,
for instance, how to meaningfully simplify John Donne's "No man is an
island" without destroying its poetic resonance. On the other hand,
rhetoric that doesn't communicate is failing the fundamental purpose of
rhetoric. Anyone besides me here remember the classic educational



E.A. Draffan writes:
> This is an interesting email as I was wondering whether this is something that we should think about in more detail because it can affect many people with cognitive difficulties.  The use of 'litotes' sometimes has  unintended consequences that if voiced, could sound not just like an understatement but more like sarcasm, but in English is acceptable as a double negative in a written sentence?    This article shows how machine learning is used to unpick the meaning that might help. 
> https://www.lexalytics.com/blog/sentiment-and-litotes-how-salience-deals-with-double-negatives/#:~:text=A%20litotes%20by%20definition%20is,negative%20is%20intuitive%20and%20easy. 
> Best wishes
> E.A. 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> 
> Sent: 21 July 2022 10:37
> To: Lisa Seeman <lisa1seeman@gmail.com>
> Cc: public-cognitive-a11y-tf <public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>; APA Chairs <group-apa-chairs@w3.org>
> Subject: Re: Examples for double negatives AND Do we need to review the titles of our patterns?
> CAUTION: This e-mail originated outside the University of Southampton.
> Dear Lisa, All:
> With CC to apa-chairs list ...
> Please pardon me that my current schedule does not allow me to take a look at the current Editor's Draft of Content Usable, nor the other referenced discussion regarding double negatives. I do, nevertheless, wish to strongly reiterate my caution against any categorical advice against the use of double negatives.
> During planning for TPAC 2021 (and possibly in a github issue--I haven't checked there either), I cautioned against this based on the draft as of September last as follows:
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Group/group-apa-chairs/2021Sep/0015.html
> "PS: Looking at the currently proposed topics for I18N got me to look at the current Editor's Draft of Content Usable. Specifically, Sec. claims the sentence "Time is not unlimited" is an example of a double negative. It is not. This grammatical construction is known as the litotes. But even more to the point is that forming double negatives is the precise way that a negative is expressed in some languages, notably slavic languages like Russian. In other words generalizing guidance as in Sec. may be of limited authoring value, which is not an APA issue, but, imo certainly worthy of discussion with I18N for a discussion for AGWG purposes."
> I would again suggest these facts have not changed, and will not change.
> Facts are indeed stubborn things:
> 1.)     Some languages express the negative by using double negative
> construction. A categorical prohibition in Content Usable will likely not pass I18N scrutiny.
> 2.)     Please inform yourselves on the difference between the litotes
> and double negatives. You don't want to come off appearing ill schooled.
> Best,
> Janina
> Lisa Seeman writes:
> > I was looking at
> > https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fdocs
> > .google.com%2Fdocument%2Fd%2F1oKFdfFN-98QZX2vaS77ElheXS_ruKhtObUHEsJjK
> > pp4%2Fedit%23&amp;data=05%7C01%7Cead%40ecs.soton.ac.uk%7Ca03e52d1a9f94
> > 87f2c1b08da6afcb351%7C4a5378f929f44d3ebe89669d03ada9d8%7C0%7C0%7C63793
> > 9930817998003%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2lu
> > MzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=MCL7tKUJ7
> > csksSsnD0ymGa5XGYm9rBNdgYefJhf6nvE%3D&amp;reserved=0
> > on
> > double negitives.
> >
> >
> > Our wording in content useable  was avoid double negative to express a 
> > positive. This came after a lot of thought and back and forth. Do you 
> > want to discuss what I remember from the conversation? We found that 
> > avoiding double negatives did not work internationally and was very 
> > inconsistent even in English.
> >
> > The title of the pattern was shortened to fit in the nav bar, but it 
> > is the wording of the pattern and not the title that is important. 
> > However the fact that we go confused between the two suggests that we 
> > need to be more careful with patten names. Can we add that to the structure conversation?
> >
> > All the best
> >
> > Lisa
> --
> Janina Sajka (she/her/hers)
> https://eur03.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Flinkedin.com%2Fin%2Fjsajka&amp;data=05%7C01%7Cead%40ecs.soton.ac.uk%7Ca03e52d1a9f9487f2c1b08da6afcb351%7C4a5378f929f44d3ebe89669d03ada9d8%7C0%7C0%7C637939930817998003%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&amp;sdata=a48zF9AvfI96jI4wz1DB0SHYoT1%2F6gqd7JsaM45Do3k%3D&amp;reserved=0
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures     http://www.w3.org/wai/apa


Janina Sajka (she/her/hers)

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Co-Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures	http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
Received on Thursday, 21 July 2022 11:17:24 UTC

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