- From: Dominique Hazael-Massieux <dom@w3.org>
- Date: Tue, 30 Apr 2013 18:27:56 +0200
- To: public-closingthegap@w3.org
Hi,
The minutes of our call today are available at:
http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html (thanks Jo and
Marcos for scribing).
I'm including a text version of the minutes below.
I'll follow up on Thursday with a summary and a call for volunteers on
the items that haven't been picked up yet.
Dom
Closing the Gap
30 Apr 2013
[2]Agenda
[2]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-closingthegap/2013Apr/0038.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-irc
Attendees
Present
dom, jo, Scott_Jenson Dan.Sun, Christine_Perey, Marcos,
Virginie
Regrets
Charles, Frederick
Chair
Dom
Scribe
Jo, Marcos
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]intro
2. [6]Run though of list of Topics and Action Plan
3. [7]Support for Offline Operations
4. [8]Network Optimizations
5. [9]Searching Web Apps
6. [10]Web Apps User Experience
* [11]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
<scribe> scribe: Jo
intro
dom: everyone clear as to the purpose of the meeting, to
develop action plans as mentioned in the email
... going round the table. say something, say hello.
... have we covered the main topics ?
Jo: Jo Rabin, have been involved in a few W3C things, W3C
Mobile Web Best Practices WG, and the W3C CoreMob CG
... I'm interested in Mobile Web, not particularly interested
in native apps even though they may have a place in the
universe
... I believe the main things of interest have been mentioned,
despite relative lack of in depth analysis
... I'm not sure we have aligned mind sets on the key points
yet
scott: first W3C meeting here to learn, approach from a design
point of view
... don't want to push for a tech agenda, want to now what an
app is, what are the things that make the Web special
... looking at the problem from a high level point of view
dan: have been involved in the [Coremob] community group,
appreciate Dom's work
... what's the advantage of the Web? There was a discussion,
still not too clear
... we are trying to close the gap, we have a number of issues
to work out, I'd like to bring up the advantages as well as
working on the gaps
dom: agree on the point re the advantage of the web, are you
saying we haven't looked, or haven't looked deeply enough?
dan: would be good to have a document, more than the one email
discussion
dom: I'll put my thoughts on the list
christine: came into the discussion becasue I was aware of the
Coremob work, work in AR, want to see it as a feature of all
presentation vehicles rather than being 'an app'
... been working in AR stds community for 4 years, regularly
come around on Web vs Native, lots of W3C standards that could
make AR part of the browser experience but they are not being
used that way
dom: encourage you to raise that gap on the list
christine: I wouldn't be the best person to represent all devs
dom: your own point of view would be welcome
Marcos: involved with sysapps WG - there is an obvious overlap
between this and that
... think that the stuff Dom has brought together is great
... good to have brought the ideas together
... sysapps is interested to hear what comes out so we can
address as soon as possible
dom: what gaps do you see?
marcos: gaps everywhere. working on a lot of technologues to
address those gaps
... Web has of itself lots of advantages
... should be a sense of urgency about closing and
leap-frogging the native app space
... have a good set of technologies, just need to bring it
together
Dom: introducing myself, head of W3C Mobile Web Intiative
... edit Standards for Mobile Web Apps, summary of where things
are
... also been working Coremob on to be the Web and Mobile IG
... as to gaps ... I've tried to push all that I had
... but realise I forgot integrating Content into search in
local context, not available to Web apps, some oppos for
integration
... lots of [alphabet soup] :-)
Scott: this is tarting the conversation as to what are the
primary goals, Google already working on a model to install Web
apps
... but this does not play to the super power of the Web
... do we want to be installed, or do we want to experience the
app
... need to distinguish the packaging from the experience
dom: mostly about integration with the environment
... Web apps should be able to integrate with this
... question you raise and that we have struggled with is how
far do we want to copy the native app experience, and how far
do we want to push the no-install purely in browser experience
... W3C is pursuing both spproaches. there are advantages to
both so that is reasonable
... there is a wealth of opportunities that installation
removes (... lack of censorship and so on ...)
... all of us on the call and list believe that the Web brings
specific unique advantages
... a long term platform that =has the right level of
investmanet attnetion etc.
... need to think about wehre native apps are superior
... leapfrog as Marcos says is better than closing the gap
... pur intallable vs pure in-browser is something we could
address and include in various proposals
... [comapre and contrast what we could say about pros and
cons]
... we need to have clear understanding of advantages and
drawback of both approaches
... social contract discussion was pretty rich in that regard
... but where does that leave us in thinking about investment
... so goal is to figure where to apply resources
<ScottJ> Well put, I just don't want us to aspire to catch up
to where apps were 5 years ago. The web can go beyond what
native apps can't do..
Jo: I feel pretty strongly that there are areas that the Web
has been left in the dust
... there are real areas: mindshare, monetization, ...
... I feel our energy would be best invested in bringing
forward the Web advantages
... that's where we're most likely to be successful
... where the Web is unique
... in particular, in the cross-platform realm
... as long as the Web is good enough compared to native
otherwise
dom: that's a clear position, I think I agree with that
characterisation with the possible exception that the Web may
not be good enough in any particular area
jo: I don't disagree with what you say
]dan: I wagree with Jo, we should look at the unique advantages
of the Web
<ScottJ_> +1
scribe: to simply say close the gap, the topic is huge, native
has its own advantages
... emphasize the Web's advantages
dom: was only one of the starting points, we haven't discussed
it much and will send my thoughts on this
<cperey> I'm signing off for toda
dom: will people contribute their dieas on how we can
captialize on the unique advantages of the Web
<cperey> bye
dom: I'll do my best tos end my thoughts and hope that people
will sent theirs too
Run though of list of Topics and Action Plan
dom: I sent a description earlier on list
... also sent list of actions that W3C could take e.g. create
WG, workshops, putting more resources into WG
... etc etc etc
... for each topic I'd like to see what action could be taken
... and to assess whether people think that this is a sensible
action plan
... may be difficult to get hold of people
... task force will support people taking actions
... if we don't make proposals then we won't get more resources
... important to get actual stuff defined and proposed
... so one by one on the list
Support for Offline Operations
Dom: the existing technologies are "underwhelming", there is
work in this space
... work is very important for a huge number of use cases
... would make sense to make a plan to accelerate that work
+1 on it being importan
marcos: yes, important, Mozilla has made a proposal
<dom>
[12]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanM
ar/0977.html
[12]
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-webapps/2013JanMar/0977.html
dom: was linked from my original message
marcos: tricky to get realistic, difficult to get momentum
dom: agree difficult to get browser vendor buy-in
... one way would be to get feedback from wide variety of
developers
... could help test
... light fires under people
... Alex Russel from Google also made a proposal
... anyone going to make a stab at making an action plan
... aw, shucks, I'll take this one, but I am not going to do
all of them!
<dom> ACTION: Dom to create action plan for offline support
[recorded in
[13]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
ion01]
<Marcos>
[14]https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
[14] https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
marcos: what's the alternative proposal
dom: navigation controller
<Marcos> marcos:
[15]https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
[15] https://github.com/slightlyoff/NavigationController
jo: surely this is a discussion that has happened in depth and
one of the participants could take lead?
dom: yes, I'll contact Tobie and Robin
Network Optimizations
dom: to be effective on mobile you need to be reactive to
various network conditions
... especially for download etc.
... related is that operators are suffeering from badly managed
movbile operation
... couple of proposals on list on how we can address this
... anyone want to pick this up?
... Dan is an operator, how about it?
jo: how about Dan Appelquist
Marcos: work is important but very broad
... does it make sense to break it up
... responsive images ... relationship with HTTP/2.0
dom: you volunteering?
marcos: already doing work on this, what are you looking for?
dom: come up with an action plan ... looking at broad topic and
suggestion actions that will make the Web more competitive
... see the link with Resposive Images, wouldn't want to limit
it
Marcos: I know waht I know about
... but don't know the whole perspective from an operator so
would want to work with someone like Dan Appelquist
dom: want one name, you can then work with anyone you like
<ScottJ_> Happy to help
dom: plus tobie and bryan from AT&T
... no shortage of people to pick their brains
Marcos: OK
<dom> ACTION: Marcos to define action plan for network
optimizations [recorded in
[16]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
ion02]
Searching Web Apps
dom: we discussed earlier highlight benefit of Web, this is at
the the frontier
... traditionally Web is the platform for searching
... huge beneit
... that said I it works well for content it don't work work
too good for local content, content behind walls etc.
... search is less effective. Devs say that if I want my stuff
to be visible I need to be on native app store
... very little interest in app store model, lack of visibility
of Web apps keeps people from using Web app approach
... anyone going to look deeper into this?
... that means folks don't think important
... I'll try to stick this to Chaals
... otherwise we wont be recommending it
Web Apps User Experience
dom: finding the right balance between integration and the lack
of installation
... what can W3C do to help in that convo
... we don't have a clear idea at all about what W3C could or
should be doing
<ScottJ_> I'd love to help but I'm such a w3c noob I'm worried
that I might not have the right approach
dom: action plan to refocus on some specific ideas
... Scott you are the ideal geezer to do this
dom: need to find out if any of the topics we have discussed
needs acrtion, not only from W3C, but how can W3C help?
<ScottJ_> great, sign me up, but be prepared for a few phone
calls... ;-)
marcos: at the last Webapps meeting Mozilla proposed a manifest
format
<Marcos> [17]http://manifest.sysapps.org/
[17] http://manifest.sysapps.org/
marcos: which basically serves as the installation manifest for
Web application
... topic relates to installed and not installed and where they
come together
... interested in pushing the work in W3C
... has been in ??? but moving over to Webapps which has more
browser vendors
<ScottJ_> <sorry, I have a hard 9am meeting, have to drop off.
I think I'm on the hook, let's follow up via email>
marcos: want to look at this from a higher level, less tech
perspective, look at use cases
<ScottJ_> thanks, enjoyed this!
<ScottJ_> bye
marcos: scott's on the hook!
<dom> ACTION: ScottJ to lead work on action plan for web apps
UX [recorded in
[18]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
ion03]
<inserted> ScribeNick: Marcos
dom: the next one is security
... Luckly we have virginie here. This one deals with secure
transactions, securing data. We've had a short discussion on
the list already. I feel there is no reason why the Web should
be behind with regards to security.
... I'm looking for expressions of support. And for a
volunteer.
virginie: we (Gemalto) are interested in this area.
dom: what I'm looking for is for someone to help document what
the gaps are between native and web with regards to crypto and
security.
virginie: what's the deadline
... ?
dom: sometime in the next 3 or 4 weeks?
virginie: I'm not sure if I can do it that quickly. But I will
do my best :)
<dom> ACTION: Virginie to lead work on action plan for Security
of Web apps [recorded in
[19]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
ion04]
dom: thanks. I'm not asking for a complete analysis, just for a
fairly light analysis of the gap to help guide us.
... another one that I wanted to mention, which has received
limited attention on the list is AppCache. AppCache has had
issues, even though it's been around for 6 years, but it's
taken 4 years for people to say that it was not the right
solution.
... I was interested in looking at what happened and why it
took so long to address this problem. Is there something that
the W3C could have done better? It would be good to look into
what happened.
... any feedback on this?
[20]http://prollyfill.org/
[20] http://prollyfill.org/
<dom> [21]http://www.w3.org/community/nextweb/
[21] http://www.w3.org/community/nextweb/
MC: the TAG is also looking at this problem
... and [22]http://prollyfill.org/ is also looking at this
[22] http://prollyfill.org/
<dom> functional Web,in-context discovery, consistency and
dependency, developer tools
dom: the remaining items that need volunteers are: functional
Web,in-context discovery, consistency and dependency, developer
tools
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Dom to create action plan for offline support
[recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
ion01]
[NEW] ACTION: Marcos to define action plan for network
optimizations [recorded in
[24]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
ion02]
[NEW] ACTION: ScottJ to lead work on action plan for web apps
UX [recorded in
[25]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
ion03]
[NEW] ACTION: Virginie to lead work on action plan for Security
of Web apps [recorded in
[26]http://www.w3.org/2013/04/30-closingthegap-minutes.html#act
ion04]
[End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 30 April 2013 16:28:19 UTC