[minutes] Thursday 13 December Teleconf

Hi,

The minutes of our teleconf today are available at:
http://www.w3.org/2007/12/13-bpwg-minutes.html

and copied as text below.

Fran├žois.


13 Dec 2007

   [2]Agenda

      [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-bpwg/2007Dec/0007.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2007/12/13-bpwg-irc

Attendees

   Present
          francois, jo, Dom, miguel, Adam, drooks, DKA, Shahriar,
          Ed_Mitukiewicz, Sean_Owen, Kai_Dietrich, SeanP, PhilA,
          achuter, Matt, nacho

   Regrets
          Magnus, Abel, Murari, Bruno

   Chair
          DKA

   Scribe
          drooks, dom

Contents

     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]CT Task Force
         2. [6]mobileOK Pro TF
         3. [7]Accessibility document
         4. [8]Call schedule over the holidays
         5. [9]exiting CR for mobileOK Basic
         6. [10]Good standing rules
         7. [11]MWBP-related events
         8. [12]Issues and actions
     * [13]Summary of Action Items
     _________________________________________________________



   dka: outlines todays agenda...

CT Task Force

   <edm> cnnot get thru zakim ...

   <jo> [no progress in last week]

   <dom> ACTION-608?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-608 -- Daniel Appelquist to recruit a TF lead
   for CT -- due 2007-12-13 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [14]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/608

     [14] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/608

   dka: can anyone give us a run down of what been happening in CT TF?
   ... no chair found yet
   ... hopefully be next week we'll have found someone

   <dom> (action-608 now due on 20071220)

   dka: anyone want to be the chair?
   ... not much to update about the checker tf

mobileOK Pro TF

   dka: was speaking at conference yesterday - there is lots of
   interest / awareness of mobile in dev community and people are
   becoming more aware of MOK

   <dom> ACTION-610?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-610 -- Daniel Appelquist to check with Kai if
   he's interested in leading the mobileOK pro TF and asking him to
   prepare a TF charter if so -- due 2007-12-13 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [15]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/610

     [15] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/610

   <edm> More on LeWeb3 conference in Paris at
   [16]http://www.leweb3.com/

     [16] http://www.leweb3.com/

   dka: now onto MOK Pro TF...
   ... do we meet criteria for a TF?

   jo: kai was volunteered sa chair and to draft charter

   <Kai> ACTION: Kai to write a charter for mobileOK Pro TF by January
   [recorded in
   [17]http://www.w3.org/2007/12/13-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-612 - Write a charter for mobileOK Pro
   TF by January [on Kai Scheppe - due 2007-12-20].

   <dom> [I'll close ACTION-610 as a result]

   <jo> [18]TF Rules

     [18] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/TaskForces/#rules

   <dom> trackbot-ng, close action-610

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-610 Check with Kai if he's interested in
   leading the mobileOK pro TF and asking him to prepare a TF charter
   if so closed

   dka: not much to report at moment on MOK Pro

Accessibility document

   <dom> ACTION-611?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-611 -- Daniel Appelquist to check with Shawn
   and Alan on getting current doc as FPWD -- due 2007-12-13 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [19]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/611

     [19] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/611

   dka: document not yet ready for 1st public WD
   ... sean working on additional content for accessibility document

   <dom> [I think this closes ACTION-611]

   <dom> trackbot-ng, ACTION-611 closed

   <jo> [nothing to add]

   <dom> trackbot-ng, close ACTION-611

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-611 Check with Shawn and Alan on getting
   current doc as FPWD closed

Call schedule over the holidays

   <dom> [I won't be available either on Dec 20, 27, Jan 3]

   dka: suggest we cancel call on 27th

   <jo> +1 t cancelling 20 and 27 Dec

   <dom> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: calls on Dec 20 and 27 canceled

   <dom> RESOLUTION: calls on Dec 20 and 27 canceled

   <Kai> yipee

exiting CR for mobileOK Basic

   <dom> CR exit criteria:

   <dom> * existence of ten highly visible mobileOK-compliant Web pages
   representing a number of different applications;

   <dom> * existence of a checker that checks each aspect of each test
   specified in this document;

   <dom> * existence of a test suite to verify the correct operation of
   mobileOK checkers.

   <dom>
   [20]http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/CR-mobileOK-basic10-tests-20071130/

     [20] http://www.w3.org/TR/2007/CR-mobileOK-basic10-tests-20071130/

   dom: we need to define how to achieve our CR exit criteria

   <dom> dom: we're ok for the checker, and I've started to work on the
   test suite

   <dom> ... but we need someone to look at finding the 10 highly
   visible web pages

   dka: we need to find some MOK compliant web pages

   <Zakim> jo, you wanted to discuss new good standing rules and to say
   that dotMobi can find some

   <dom> ACTION: Jo to start collecting mobileOK web pages for mobileOK
   CR - due January 10 [recorded in
   [21]http://www.w3.org/2007/12/13-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-613 - start collecting mobileOK web
   pages for mobileOK CR [on Jo Rabin - due 2007-01-10].

   <Zakim> jo, you wanted to discuss new good standing rules

Good standing rules

   jo: we've discussed some revised good standing rules
   ... a large number of members are not attending calls / contributing
   ... new rules are...

   <dom> [22]Draft Good standing rules

     [22] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/GoodStanding.html

   jo: 1. non-attendance a meeting within 3 weeks of joining group
   ... 2. sending regrets for 3 consecutiive weeks
   ... 3. don't respond to surveys

   4. non-attendance for 6 weeks

   <Zakim> PhilA, you wanted to ask about current list of participants

   <dom> [23]Participants in the Mobile Web Best Practices Working
   Group

     [23] http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=37584&public=1

   <PhilA>
   [24]http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=37584&public=1

     [24] http://www.w3.org/2000/09/dbwg/details?group=37584&public=1

   dom: good standing tracking will be automated
   ... bad standing will not be automated

MWBP-related events

   <PhilA> I have a quick one

   phila: trying to organise a joint w3c / gsma event in march
   ... should cover POWDER and MWBP

   dka: been planning a mobile web developer event in london

   <inserted> ScribeNick: dom

Issues and actions

   -> [25]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/overdue
   Overdue action items

     [25] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/overdue

   close ACTION-596

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-596 Encourage group participants to re-register
   themselves or have their AC reps re-register them for group
   membership in two weeks. closed

   close ACTION-595

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-595 Encourage group participants to re-register
   themselves or have their AC reps re-register them for group
   membership in two weeks. closed

   close ACTION-597

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-597 Formulate a poll on what exactly people are
   planning on doing with mobileOK Pro, beyond issuing a mandate
   (potentially) closed

   <matt> dom++

   close ACTION-598

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-598 Add to the poll people's intention to
   participate in a MobileOK Pro Cram Session including dates for doing
   this closed

   ACTION-588?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-588 -- Jo Rabin to with Dan to raise this
   document at next HCG meeting informing them of our intentions and
   soliciting input -- due 2007-11-12 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [26]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/588

     [26] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/588

   DKA: it wasn't discussed on the HCG call, but I included it in my
   report to the HCG

   Dom: due updated to January 10, will have to be updated for next HCG
   call presumably

   close ACTION-601

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-601 Send email chasing to people to renew
   closed

   ACTION-592?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-592 -- Edward Mitukiewicz to report whether he
   can be editor of the document who shall not be named -- due
   2007-11-19 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [27]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/592

     [27] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/592

   Ed: we'll have a decision on this hopefully next week

   <inserted> ScribeNick: drooks

   dka: brian has indicated it looks ok

   dom: how do we get this document started?
   ... do ed and brian need to put together a 1st draft?

   dka: think we need more group input before 1st draft

   ed: 1st step should be defining scope, this can be a group effort

   dka: we discused this in boston...

   <dom> [I just created ISSUE-229 as a result of this discussion:
   "Scope of mobile web applications best practices"]

   ed: boston minutes are good start but needs further input

   <inserted> ScribeNick: dom

   <francois> ACTION-581?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-581 -- Jo Rabin to to promote discussion on the
   list and then produce editors draft based on discussion -- due
   2007-10-30 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [28]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/581

     [28] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/581

   trackbot-ng, close ACTION-581

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-581 to promote discussion on the list and then
   produce editors draft based on discussion closed

   trackbot-ng, close ACTION-586

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-586 Raise ISSUE on setting criteria for group
   sign off on mobileOK checker once the task force says it is done
   with the work closed

   -> [29]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/228
   ISSUE-228 What Criteria for Checker Approval?

     [29] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/228

   ACTION-530?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-530 -- Edward Mitukiewicz to draft a page on
   context and its effect on content authors etc -- due 2007-11-21 --
   OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [30]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/530

     [30] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/530

   -> [31]http://www.w3.org/2007/07/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action02
   Minutes where that action-530 was created

     [31] http://www.w3.org/2007/07/20-bpwg-minutes.html#action02

   Ed: let's pretend this action never existed

   Jo: I think it would be useful to have such a document, actually

   [I've just updated the due date to early January]

   ACTION-593?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-593 -- Kai Scheppe to write a summary of
   preliminary work to be done for this working group to focus on Best
   Practices for Web applications -- due 2007-11-13 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [32]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/593

     [32] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/593

   Kai: thought I had done it, but don't see anything linked from it
   ... will look back at it

   ACTION-594?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-594 -- Daniel Appelquist to coordinate mobileOK
   Basic advancement, probably starting with a teleconf -- due
   2007-11-13 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [33]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/594

     [33] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/594

   <PhilA> it was going to be a call with you, me and Marie Claire I
   think

   <PhilA> and kai, I assume

   ACTION-594 date updated

   <francois> ACTION-599?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-599 -- Alan Chuter to look at mailing list for
   sharing information between BP and EO -- due 2007-11-13 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [34]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/599

     [34] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/599

   DKA: the mailing list exists (the TF mailing list), but we haven't
   put it to use

   Alan: perhaps having a shared mailing list isn't that necessary
   ... I can serve as a bridge between the two groups

   DKA: we probably don't need it

   trackbot-ng, close ACTION-599

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-599 Look at mailing list for sharing
   information between BP and EO closed

   ACTION-602?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-602 -- Jo Rabin to raise an issue on how useful
   this spec will be without HTTP extensions of some form -- due
   2007-11-27 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [35]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/602

     [35] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/602

   Jo: I raised that issue

   (ISSUE-227)

   close ACTION-602

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-602 Raise an issue on how useful this spec will
   be without HTTP extensions of some form closed

   ACTION-603?

   <trackbot-ng> ACTION-603 -- Jo Rabin to find out how to liaise with
   HTTP NG work -- due 2007-12-04 -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [36]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/603

     [36] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/actions/603

   Jo: sent Mark Nottingham a long email, but didn't get a reply

   <PhilA> I think you just join the BISHTTP list

   <PhilA> I was on it for a short time, it's open

   Jo: Dom gave me another contact that I haven't contacted yet

   <PhilA> They had a f2f in Vancouver recently I think

   <PhilA>
   [37]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2007OctDec/

     [37] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2007OctDec/

   Dom: BISHTTP being presumably the list of the rechartered IETF WG
   that works on revising HTTP

   PhilA: the only requirement to join the WG is to join the mailing
   list, actually
   ... pretty active mailing list
   ... it's the old HTTP gang again

   Dom: they're "only" fixing HTTP 1.1, not creating HTTP 1.2

   <PhilA>
   [38]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2007OctDec/0108
   .html

     [38] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/2007OctDec/0108.html

   PhilA: indeed, they won't be adding new features
   ... they have a very restricted charter

   DKA: how does that affect our ability to put mobileOK hints in HTTP
   headers?

   PhilA: I don't think they will help - the charter forbids them to
   define new headers, IIRC
   ... it's unclear how this affects the status of promulgating the
   Link: header
   ... I don't know that the IETF process is to push an internet draft
   as RFC

   <jo> [the CT group just wants to add some values for the
   Cache-Control header]

   -> [39]http://www.mnot.net/blog/2007/12/12/stale Mark Nottingham's
   on extending the Cache-Control header

     [39] http://www.mnot.net/blog/2007/12/12/stale

   ACTION-606 and ACTION-607 marked as PendingReview

   [discussions around ISSUE-222]

   -> [40]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/alternatives-discovery.html
   TAG Finding on Alternative Representations

     [40] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/alternatives-discovery.html

   <scribe> ACTION: Jo to restart discussion on the TAG finding
   (ISSUE-222) on the public mailing list [recorded in
   [41]http://www.w3.org/2007/12/13-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]

   <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-614 - Restart discussion on the TAG
   finding (ISSUE-222) on the public mailing list [on Jo Rabin - due
   2007-12-20].

   (ISSUE-227)

   ISSUE-227?

   <trackbot-ng> ISSUE-227 -- How Useful will the CT Guidelines Doc be,
   without extensions to HTTP? -- OPEN

   <trackbot-ng>
   [42]http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/227

     [42] http://www.w3.org/2005/MWI/BPWG/Group/track/issues/227

   (13 messages exchanged on this topic in the TF)

   Jo: there is mild support for going beyond Cache-Control and Vary
   ... my own view (which is not supported) is that if we only say so,
   we may as well have said 3 months ago

   DKA: I think we need to say something else

   Jo: if it's clear than something less brute-force than
   "no-transform" is needed (e.g. to allow compression by an
   intermediate, or adapting the image format, but don't relay my stuff
   out)
   ... then there is a need for something else
   ... the problem with no-transform in particular is [...]?

   kai: are you going to give instructions on how to handle specific
   parts of the content?

   Jo: no, the idea on the table is to day that "Cache-control:
   no-transform, ..." has a fail-safe interpretation for non-conforming
   proxies

   Kai: I'm wondering if we really have to worry about non-conforming
   proxies
   ... and not deal with those that don't follow the rules

   Jo: I agree-ish
   ... but there is a community agreement on how to fail safely these
   instructions
   ... is it in scope for our charter to invent new values for the
   cache-control header?
   ... it's clear we wouldn't want to invent new HTTP headers
   ... but having modifiers on the existing values might be OK-ish

   q,

   <DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: new values for cache control headers is
   not new technology.

   <DKA> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: We will take over the IETF.

   <Kai> +1

   <Zakim> Kai, you wanted to say that I think caching already
   understood and used badly enough. We do not need to make it more
   complicated but should focus on correct usage of what exists

   <PhilA> Happy Christmas everyone

   <jo> [and hanukkah]

   <drooks> bye

   <PhilA> bye

Summary of Action Items

   [NEW] ACTION: Jo to restart discussion on the TAG finding
   (ISSUE-222) on the public mailing list [recorded in
   [43]http://www.w3.org/2007/12/13-bpwg-minutes.html#action03]
   [NEW] ACTION: Jo to start collecting mobileOK web pages for mobileOK
   CR - due January 10 [recorded in
   [44]http://www.w3.org/2007/12/13-bpwg-minutes.html#action02]
   [NEW] ACTION: Kai to write a charter for mobileOK Pro TF by January
   [recorded in
   [45]http://www.w3.org/2007/12/13-bpwg-minutes.html#action01]

   [End of minutes]

Received on Thursday, 13 December 2007 17:27:32 UTC