- From: Robert Finean <Rob.Finean@openwave.com>
- Date: Mon, 17 Nov 2008 11:20:36 -0000
- To: <casays@yahoo.com>
- Cc: <public-bpwg-ct@w3.org>
Eduardo, You make a good point about homogeneity and writing guidelines where guidance is needed whilst steering clear of implementation details. But HTTPS is a fact of the web: >This stretches credibility. HTTPS URI rewriting looks like an abstract, >contrived use case, not a realistic one. I disagree. In the long tail there are many useful websites that have no mobile-friendly access to their content. It is these sites that CT-proxies are for. An example? BA.com is a big javascript-heavy site and uses https for log-in. Online check-in is a realistic use-case. >1. Users are ready to forgo end-to-end security for a site where it is >expected; If a user is in a taxi with 30 minutes to take-off then yes, they'll be prepared to forgo end-to-end security. CTG mandates that the user is warned of the implications. >2. they are ready to accept the usability issues that result from >transcoding, >probably heightened, because secure sites tend to rely a lot on scripts >(e.g. >Javascript); They will already be used to the usability issues on their handset. SSL does not affect these much. JavaScript and its treatment by a CT-proxy is identical with SSL or without. >3. they are ready to accept the fact that, for all technical reasons listed >by >Thomas Roessler, HTTPS URI rewriting has a high probability of not working >at >all; Wait, it does work. I can provide you with an Openwave demo that shows it. Several mobile networks around the world already use it. >4. this population of users is statistically significant; In the long-tail of content individual examples aren't significant, what is useful is the ability to navigate all options. For example I get my work email (MS Exchange HTTPS web access) on a Nokia 6230i. >5. there is no mobile-optimized site corresponding to the desktop one this >significant population attempts to access via transcoders. As in 4 the further into the long-tail you get the less likely website owners will have invested the man-years in building mobile access. So if there are any specific man-in-the-middle guidelines to be made (eg warning before) then these must be made in the CTG. Thanks, Rob -- OPENWAVE Dr Robert Finean Open Internet Products Manager www.openwave.com -----Original Message----- From: public-bpwg-ct-request@w3.org [mailto:public-bpwg-ct-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Eduardo Casais Sent: Mon 17 November 2008 10:06 To: public-bpwg-ct@w3.org Subject: [HTTPS] Thoughts on HTTPS Links rewriting HTTP rewriting has perhaps been the most criticized feature of the CTG, and the latest information collected by François makes it clear that we are probably trying the impossible -- simultaneously breaking something and making it work. >From my perspective, we are facing the following issues: a) Defining transformations HTTPS URI rewriting is a specific transformation (of the request and of the response bodies). It has been repeatedly been said that the goal of the CTG is to specify signalling amongst entities in the HTTP flow, not to define how and when they should do which transformations -- but this is precisely what is being attempted with HTTPS URI rewriting (do not do HTTPS rewriting when..., rewritten links must have https schema..., clients must be informed of invalid certificates..., etc). As an example, the proposal to handle the use case I raised "Proxies MUST NOT rewrite HTTPS links when the hostname targeted by the link does not match the one of the resource being retrieved" is a thread that once unwinded leads to other difficulties: what if the domains match, because the site has an agent switcher (returning both desktop-optimized and mobile-optimized content)? What if there is no domain name, but an IP address -- that may resolve to several domain names? And we are not even sure whether HTTPS URI should be rewritten to other HTTPS URI or not... It is likely that we have not even figured out all cases where HTTP URI rewriting leads to unsuspected results. Since the CTG goal is not to define how to perform transformations correctly, no time should be wasted with patching up HTTPS URI rewriting. We have refrained to do so for conversions amongst character encoding, for instance; the document ought to be consistent throughout. b) Other security issues The discussion has focussed on HTTPS URI rewriting as a security issue -- which was positive, since it highlighted the consequences of such transformations and the necessity to provide robust signalling mechanisms to clients and servers. There are however other form of rewriting and transformations that may entail security consequences, but they have neither been considered in detail, nor have guidelines been defined to make them "work": 1. rewriting of hidden variables (often used to keep state and session data); 2. manipulation of cookies (with man-in-the-middle security implications); 3. filtering of scripts (which are often used to carry out validations). Dealing exclusively with HTTPS URI rewriting gives the impression the CTG is actually endeavouring to figure out a way to implement a proprietary feature of some transcoders "right" -- to the detriment of generality required for such a document. c) Signalling vs. transformations >From that perspective, the CTG should enforce the following signalling requirements: 1. Clients have a choice to access the original, unadulterated service over the original, unadulterated communication link, or the transformed one over a potentially transformed link. 2. Clients are informed of the potential general usability and security consequences of using transformed services. 3. Servers have a way to identify unambiguously whether a transcoder is present, potentially altering the service characteristics (requests, responses, communication link). 4. Servers have a way to signal that their service must not be altered. 5. Transcoders have a basic mechanism to shut down the activity of other transcoders upstream (requests) or downstream (responses). The CTG is almost there regarding these requirements; it should make them robust. HTTPS URI rewriting is inherently brittle, and so far nobody sees a way to make it robust enough. d) Missing use cases At the risk of sounding repetitive, let me state once more that the use case for HTTPS URI rewriting is extremely questionable. It assumes that: 1. Users are ready to forgo end-to-end security for a site where it is expected; 2. they are ready to accept the usability issues that result from transcoding, probably heightened, because secure sites tend to rely a lot on scripts (e.g. Javascript); 3. they are ready to accept the fact that, for all technical reasons listed by Thomas Roessler, HTTPS URI rewriting has a high probability of not working at all; 4. this population of users is statistically significant; 5. there is no mobile-optimized site corresponding to the desktop one this significant population attempts to access via transcoders. This stretches credibility. HTTPS URI rewriting looks like an abstract, contrived use case, not a realistic one. Operators deploying HTTPS-rewriting transcoders are already whitelisting a whole range of secure sites -- further evidence that HTTPS rewriting and the ensuing break of end-to-end security are actually not acceptable. e) Security considerations What is the way forward? The CTG should eliminate the section on HTTPS URI rewriting and refrain from trying to give the impression that this transformation somehow works (because it cannot), even with all the prudent caveats already included. Instead, there should be an independent chapter "Security considerations", just like in IETF RFC standards, which 1. Lists transformations with potential security impact (cookies, hidden variables, scripts, https URI). 2. Mentions the consequences of HTTPS URI rewriting (break of end-to-end security, various technical issues by Th.Roessler). 3. Determines that since the CTG is not a legal document, whatever happens at the proxy level once end-to-end security is broken is undefined (i.e. whatever happens to passwords, input, communication, etc, is undefined). 4. Refers to the signalling primitives in the main text to enable users to decide whether to access a service via rewritten links or not, and for servers to accept or deny a service over a rewritten link. 5. Resolves that because of 2 and 3, transformations that wilfully break security are not considered to be good practices. Let us not fool ourselves with declarations like "The BPWG does not condone link rewriting, but..." Once the BPWG spends time (and time it did spend) figuring out when and how to do HTTPS URI rewriting, it is condoning the practice. This specific transformation causes plenty of security and technical problems, intelligent people have tried to make it work acceptably and could not; let us nail down the signalling issues and provide a way for clients and servers to make an informed decision, but let us forget about HTTPS URI rewriting itself. E.Casais
Received on Monday, 17 November 2008 11:21:57 UTC