- From: David Booth <david@dbooth.org>
- Date: Tue, 10 May 2011 10:49:42 -0400
- To: AWWSW TF <public-awwsw@w3.org>
Draft minutes: http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-awwsw-minutes.html
and below in plain text.
-------------------------------------------
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
AWWSW
10 May 2011
See also: [2]IRC log
[2] http://www.w3.org/2011/05/10-awwsw-irc
Attendees
Present
David_Booth, Jonathan_Rees, Alan_Ruttenberg
Regrets
Chair
Jonathan Rees (jar)
Scribe
alanr
Contents
* [3]Topics
1. [4]What has been happening in AWWSW task force?
* [5]Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<jar> zakim's clock is fast.
<jar> by 1-2 minutes
<jar> pinging alanr
<jar> alanr: "Few min. Parking"
What has been happening in AWWSW task force?
hi
zakim who is here?
<jar> Look for subject: AWWSW Telecon Tuesday 2011-05-10
<dbooth> jar: In the last few months I've been focusing on how to
prevent the train wreck between CC and linked data.
<jar> does the URI refer to the IR at that URI, or to something
else?
jimendo
<jar> e.g. another IR, or a toucan
<dbooth> alanr: i.e., whether the URI refers to the page at the URI
or something else? this comes up with CC licenses.
eg. music IR at [6]http://www.jamendo.com/en/
[6] http://www.jamendo.com/en/
<dbooth> jar: This also is related to Ian Davis's desire to ditch
the httpRange-14 rule.
<jar> also Ian Davis and Harry H's desire to ditch httpRange-14
<jar> <[7]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807>
[7] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
<jar> xhv:license
<[8]http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/>.
[8] http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/3.0/%3E.
ping
ping
<jar> does the URI refer to the IR at that URI, or to something
else?
<dbooth> alanr: And in the specific case of a music file, the IR at
that publish URI is not a music file.
"a page about an album"
<dbooth> jar: There are two IRs: the landing page and the music.
the IR at <[9]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> is a "landing
page", and it is a page about an album.
[9] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
<dbooth> jar: Clearly they do not mean to license the landing page.
that URI is a subject of a license assertion
but clearly the license assertion is about the music
<dbooth> jar: CC has a page that tells people how to do this
correctly, but jamendo didn't do it right.
[10]http://www.jamendo.com/en/download/album/78807
[10] http://www.jamendo.com/en/download/album/78807
that's the download URI on the landing page
<jar> [11]http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Web_Statement
[11] http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Web_Statement
[12]http://download25.jamendo.com/download/album/78807/mp32/befe7911
b7/mauriziooddone%20-%20Johann%20sebastian%20Bach%20(1685%20-%201750
)%20-%20CelloSuite%20(Prima%20parte)%20BWV.%201007%2C%20BWV.%201008%
2C%20BWV.%201009%20-%20Chitarra%20Maurizio%20Oddone%20--%20Jamendo%2
0-%20MP3%20VBR%20192k%20-%202010.11.05%20%5Bwww.jamendo.com%5D.zip
[12] http://download25.jamendo.com/download/album/78807/mp32/befe7911b7/mauriziooddone%20-%20Johann%20sebastian%20Bach%20(1685%20-%201750)%20-%20CelloSuite%20(Prima%20parte)%20BWV.%201007%2C%20BWV.%201008%2C%20BWV.%201009%20-%20Chitarra%20Maurizio%20Oddone%20--%20Jamendo%20-%20MP3%20VBR%20192k%20-%202010.11.05%20%5Bwww.jamendo.com%5D.zip
that's the IR?
<jar> I get an error
[13]http://imgjam.com/torrents/album/807/78807/78807-mp32.torrent/ma
uriziooddone%20-%20Johann%20sebastian%20Bach%20%281685%20-%201750%29
%20-%20CelloSuite%20%28Prima%20parte%29%20BWV.%201007%2C%20BWV.%2010
08%2C%20BWV.%201009%20-%20Chitarra%20Maurizio%20Oddone%20--%20Jamend
o%20-%20MP3%20VBR%20192k%20-%202010.11.05%20%5Bwww.jamendo.com%5D.to
rrent
[13] http://imgjam.com/torrents/album/807/78807/78807-mp32.torrent/mauriziooddone%20-%20Johann%20sebastian%20Bach%20%281685%20-%201750%29%20-%20CelloSuite%20%28Prima%20parte%29%20BWV.%201007%2C%20BWV.%201008%2C%20BWV.%201009%20-%20Chitarra%20Maurizio%20Oddone%20--%20Jamendo%20-%20MP3%20VBR%20192k%20-%202010.11.05%20%5Bwww.jamendo.com%5D.torrent
alan asks David if he agrees this is a problem
David says: example of ambiguity. one kind of ambiguity of
reference. We can't get rid of ambiguity. Arch works fine.
practical problem: specific applications are counting on one way of
expressing things
this one is not following the rules that are expected
Jar: what rule is it not following
dbooth: one class of applications will interpret the license as
applying to the landing page
(class of applications that work the way jonathan documented)
but also could be others who interpret it differently?
dbooth: not clear there is this second class
for people in that case the URI indirectly identifies the music. How
do they know that's what it identifies? By human means. But don't
see an automated way that they could know that.
[14]http://ccmixter.org/
[14] http://ccmixter.org/
dbooth: license would stand up in court - intent was clear but is
problem for automation
goal is that intent should be clear by automation
are there ways to make this clear?
Harry suggests using IRW ontology - add more metadata that says the
URI in question means something particular
<dbooth> dbooth: The problem is how to say that some other
statements should be ignored.
<jar> (1) use a different URI - that's what CC says (e.g. urn:sha1:
)
<dbooth> ... i.e., statements made implicitly by an HTTP 200 OK
response code.
<jar> [15]http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Web_Statement
[15] http://wiki.creativecommons.org/Web_Statement
<jar> (2) use landing page URI, but add metadata to make it clear
that this URI refers to the music, not to the landing page.
<jar> (2) is what Harry proposed (IRW)
<jar> (2) scoped to RDF
<dbooth> dbooth: the URI could refer to the combination of the
landing page and the music, and then the license would apply to that
combination.
<dbooth> ... so if owl:sameAs were used between the music URI and
the landing page URI, this may be a solution.
<jar> no
<jar> because how would anyone know that the music URI refers to the
music?
<jar> same problem - figuring out what the music URI refers to, and
what the landing page URI refers to
alanr: asks the question what the difference between saying "this
URI refers to the music" versus. URI sameAs musicURI
trying to clarify (2)
<dbooth> ... an assertion could say that the thing is :Music .
one answer is (2) is one way but sameAs is two-way
rephrasing: If you make a statement that "URI refers to the music"
this is one-way.
one-way = unidirectional (synonym in alan jargon)
A sameAs B <=> B sameAs A
sameAs is statement about resource, not about URI
<urn:sha1:MSMBC5VEUDLTC26UT5W7GZBAKZHCY2MD> :license
<[16]http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/> .
[16] http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by/3.0/%3E
CC example of musicURI is urn:sha1...
<jar> <urn:sha1:x> foaf:sha1 x.
[17]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme
[17] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magnet_URI_scheme
<dbooth> <[18]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> owl:sameAs
[18] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
<dbooth>
[19]http://download25.jamendo.com/download/album/78807/mp32/befe7911
b7/mauriziooddone%20-%20Johann%20sebastian%20Bach%20(1685%20-%201750
)%20-%20CelloSuite%20(Prima%20parte)%20BWV.%201007%2C%20BWV.%201008%
2C%20BWV.%201009%20-%20Chitarra%20Maurizio%20Oddone%20--%20Jamendo%2
0-%20MP3%20VBR%20192k%20-%202010.11.05%20%5Bwww.jamendo.com%5D.zip>
.
[19] http://download25.jamendo.com/download/album/78807/mp32/befe7911b7/mauriziooddone%20-%20Johann%20sebastian%20Bach%20(1685%20-%201750)%20-%20CelloSuite%20(Prima%20parte)%20BWV.%201007%2C%20BWV.%201008%2C%20BWV.%201009%20-%20Chitarra%20Maurizio%20Oddone%20--%20Jamendo%20-%20MP3%20VBR%20192k%20-%202010.11.05%20%5Bwww.jamendo.com%5D.zip%3E
<dbooth> <[20]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> cc:license
<foo> .
[20] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
<[21]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> a :music
[21] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
<dbooth> dbooth: And as long as classes are not disjoint, then it
works.
this help because now you can start looking for something is music
jar: doesn't say which music
but if there is additional metadata (on either URI)
<dbooth> <[22]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> :composer
"Johann sebastian Bach" .
[22] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
<jar> sure, with enough metadata you can identify what you want to
refer to. e.g. sha1
<[23]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> creator bach
[23] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
<dbooth> dbooth: So it seems to me that the owl:sameAs solution
works, provided that the consuming apps can live with the ambiguity
it creates between the landing page and the music.
<dbooth> alanr: People are looking for a follow-your-nose process
that will yield the right answer.
<jar> we're talking about apps like ccmixter that need to know what
is licenced and how, in order to be correct
<dbooth> <[24]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> cc:license
<foo> .
[24] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
<jar> it's xhtml:license
<dbooth> <[25]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> :onWebAt
"[26]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807" .
[25] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
[26] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807
<jar> :onWebAt
<dbooth> per [27]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/ir/latest/
[27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/ir/latest/
<jar> then we're hosed. the IR on the web at that URI is the landing
page
agreed
<jar> in this case the sameas would create an inconsistency
[a landingpage] sameas [a music]
<jar> representation is authorized for uri
an authorized representation from a landingpage(uri)...
would be one that you get by getting that URI
representations for the music are not authorized for the landing
page and vice versa
<dbooth> { ?landingPage :onWebAt ?landingPageUri. } => { ?rep ... }
<jar> when someone asks for the zip file, they have to get the zip
file
<dbooth> <[28]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/ir/latest/> or
"[29]http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/ir/latest/"
[28] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/ir/latest/%3E
[29] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/awwsw/ir/latest/
<dbooth> ?
<[30]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807>
[30] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
an intended (authorized) representation would be e.g. html encoded
human readable information
<jar> assuming <x> :onWebAt "x"
(assuming <[31]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> onWebAt
"[32]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807"
[31] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
[32] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807
<dbooth> <[33]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807>
:hasAuthorizedRepresentation "Content-Type: HTML, ... " .
[33] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
<[34]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip>
[34] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip%3E
intended representations are encoded digitized music
<dbooth> <[35]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> :onWebAt
"[36]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807" .
[35] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
[36] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807
<[37]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip> onWebAt
"[38]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip"
[37] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip%3E
[38] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip
<dbooth> <[39]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip> dc:author
"Johan Sebastian Bach" .
[39] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip%3E
<[40]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip> sameAs
<[41]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip>
[40] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip%3E
[41] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip%3E
belay that. let me try again
<[42]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip> sameAs
<[43]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807>
[42] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip%3E
[43] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
<jar> the landing page does NOT have any ZIP authorized
representations, by definition of :onWebAt
<dbooth> <[44]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip>
:hasAuthorizedRespresentation "Content-Type: Music..."
[44] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip%3E
not by onWebAt, by what we agreed was an authorized/intended
epresentation
<jar> sameas leads to R authorized and R *not* authorized
there is no correct interpretation in which we don't have a problem.
David do you agree?
<jar> back in 2 minutes
<dbooth> dbooth: Well, it depends on what you mean by "correct".
there no not inconsistent interpretation in which we don't have a
problem. David do you agree?
<dbooth> If there are no disjointness assertions, then there *are*
satisfying interpretations.
(i.e. correct = (at least) not inconsistent)
<dbooth> dbooth: This may work just fine for applications that do
not need to distinguish between the landing page and the music. But
it won't work for apps that need to distinguish between them (and
which effectively use disjointness assertions).
<jar> there are always going to be satisfying interpretations that
aren't correct
<dbooth> jar: There are going to be satisfying interpretations that
are not "correct", i.e., do not agree with the real world.
<jar> that just means that we've failed to articulate some axioms
an application that is classifying assets:
making a classification into one of 3 categories
1) intellectual property
2) real estate
3) vehicles
both <[45]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip> and
<[46]http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807> classify under (1
intellectual property)
[45] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807.zip%3E
[46] http://www.jamendo.com/en/album/78807%3E
so: it's ok to make the sameAs statement
(according to dave)
<jar> db: assuming there is metadata that says that one of the URIs
names intellectual property
dbooth says: it is not possible to serve all the application
<dbooth> dbooth: i.e., it is impossible to avoid all ambiguity of
reference.
without the sameAs the license attribution application doesn't work
with the sameAs it also doesn't work, because of inconsistency
I'm a publisher and I'm trying to make something that works for both
the music spider and the classifier
music spider = license attributor
dbooth: claim sameAs works for license attributor
<dbooth> dbooth: I think the music spider app is different from the
license attributor.
proposal: general advise that landing pages should have sameAs to
resource would be a bad idea
<dbooth> dbooth: It would be bad only because there are important
existing apps (e.g., music spider downloader) that would fail.
what worries me with david's "applications rule"
philosophy is that it seems it encourages building to the
unspecified. Namely it places more importance on the computed
possible interpretations than on the intended ones (even given
evidence of intention)
<dbooth> dbooth: my "applications rule" is that what matters is not
whether the assertions are correct statements about the real world,
but whether apps work using them.
<dbooth> dbooth: What you're describing is what I call the resource
identity guessing game.
<dbooth> dbooth: Yes, my "applications rule" *does* place more
importance on the computed possible interpretations than on the
"intended" interpretations. The reason for this is that the
"intended" interpretations are only known by the publisher. They are
not knowable by the users or consumers of a URI.
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
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Minutes formatted by David Booth's [47]scribe.perl version 1.135
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$Date: 2011/05/10 14:47:09 $
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Present: David_Booth Jonathan_Rees Alan_Ruttenberg
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--
David Booth, Ph.D.
http://dbooth.org/
Opinions expressed herein are those of the author and do not necessarily
reflect those of his employer.
Received on Tuesday, 10 May 2011 14:50:09 UTC