draft minutes for 2008-01-08 telecon

- DRAFT 2 -

AWWSW Teleconference of 8 January 2008

See also: IRC log, draft minutes

Attendees

Present
Tim Berners-Lee, David Booth, Noah Mendelsohn, Jonathan Rees, Alan  
Ruttenberg, Stuart Williams
Absent
Pat Hayes, Henry Thompson
Chair
Jonathan Rees
Scribe
alanr
Contents

Topics
Summary of Action Items


JAR's edits in [brackets]

<jar> i started a page http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswAnalysis of first  
principles analysis... consensus i hope
<jar> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswTopicsBrainstormPage
<jar> Crude beginning on a consensus document http://esw.w3.org/topic/ 
AwwswAnalysis
<scribe> scribe:alanr
tim: can't define 200 exactly, in english - would be a mistake. Take  
a tutorial. Define in terms of how interactions go in protocols
... Defining what information resource is, is a trap
... What's useful is the content of the message (?)
what happens when you get a 302 then a xxx and then a xxx, what does  
that mean?
<dbooth> I like the idea of being able to explain what it means when  
you get a 303 followed by a 302 followed by a 200.
tim: tabulator does generate triples and does use them
<timbl> Tim: What is useful is the semantics of the message-- eg what  
a 200 means in terms of what [how] the body [is] related to the  
abstract document.
jonathan: we should address tabulator's needs, but generalize
and what's a document?
Jonathan: didn't see what 200 concluded
<Stuart> methinks.. something with a document oriented interface :-)
Tim: concludes it's a document, and opens up a document view. For  
image/ opens an image view
tim 303: won't give you an option of looking at the document
tim: 302 generates, as part of document containing the link, gives  
warning
<Stuart> eg. a [remotely controlled] robot arm could be controlled  
via an exchange of 'document-like' messages.
<Zakim> dbooth, you wanted to say that key to me is putting proposed  
RDF on the table of what these things mean
<Stuart> can the URI 'identify' a robot arm rather than a document  
'implied' [by] the message exchange.
<timbl> { ?x http:resresentation ?r } ..
jonathan: Are the tabulator's rules in one place?
<timbl> http://dig.csail.mit.edu/2005/ajar/ajaw/js/rdf/sources.js
<timbl> FWIW the code in which tabulator has hard coded inference
<timbl> if (xhr.status-0 == 200) {
<timbl> addType(tabulator.ns.link('Document'));
noah: asking about image/
<dbooth> noah: [suppose] I have a resource that I know is a text doc,  
but for whatever reason I have a photographed copy of the page. This  
seems to imply that the media type bounds the nature of the document  
to the image.
<dbooth> timbl: Yes, that's not quite right, but it's a good hack.
<timbl> Note addType pecolates back up through the 301 an 302 and  
adds thr typre s to them too
<timbl> The conclusion that something 'is' an image from the image/*  
content-type is a hack, not architecturally solid.
<dbooth> noah: We should say that the nature of the media type does  
not further bound the nature of the resource.
<timbl> link:Document owl:disjointWith foaf:Person.
<Zakim> noah, you wanted to ask tim about 200
<jar> stuart: robot arm responding with 200s reporting position, is  
the robot arm a document? (tabulator says yes)
<dbooth> "What do you want to say about it?" is very much like "what  
inferences do we want to make?"
<jar> noah: this is just httprange-14
<Zakim> alan, you wanted to ask: httpRange-14 says "If an "http"  
resource responds to a GET request" - does this tell us what a  
resource is - it can "respond"
<dbooth> My opinion: To be kosher, the robot URI that returns 200  
would be the URI of the HTTP *interface* of the robot.
<jar> jar: let's talk about 200 where we already believe the thing is  
a document, not other cases, for now
is a form that lets you tweak a robot, a document?
<dbooth> I agree with starting with "What inferences do we want to  
make?", and I want to see RDF on the table.
http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues.html#httpRange-14
<jar> alanr: httpRange-14 is unclear - what was the intent re the  
language? is it really the resource that responds?
agreed on 15 Jun 2005
The TAG provides advice to the community that they may mint "http"  
URIs for any resource provided that they follow this simple rule for  
the sake of removing ambiguity:
* If an "http" resource responds to a GET request with a 2xx  
response, then the resource identified by that URI is an information  
resource;
* If an "http" resource responds to a GET request with a 303 (See  
Other) response, then the resource identified by that URI could be  
any resource;
* If an "http" resource responds to a GET request with a 4xx (error)  
response, then the nature of the resource is unknown.
<jar> timbl: it's not cleanly put. should say ... something about the  
server ...
<jar> alanr: requests some action [on the part of the TAG] on this  
language
<dbooth> Should be something like "If the HTTP status code resulting  
from a GET request on a URI is 2xx . . . "
<jar> timbl: ok [that the TAG should act to clarify the language]
<Stuart> FWIW... I prefer to think of HTTP requests as questions  
being asked of Web Infrastructure and responses as being generated by  
web infrastructure.
<jar> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswHome
<Stuart> not all requests make it to the web server (caches may  
respond instead);
<dbooth> I want our main work product to be RDF and inference rules.
<dbooth> I think other wording improvements may fall out from that.
<dbooth> I have put RDF on the table, and will continue to do so. I  
haven't looked specifically at what tabulator does.
http://esw.w3.org/topic/ErrataHttpRange14
<jar> jar: asking timbl what best process is for getting tabulator's  
inference rules recorded in the wiki. timbl short on time
<jar> timbl: is putting them in now
<timbl> http://esw.w3.org/topic/AwwswAnalysis
<dbooth> jar: Some agents may want to be conservative in the  
inferences that they make, in case the server is hostile, while  
others may be more liberal, like tabulator.
<jar> alanr: jar is talking about default reasoning, perhaps.  
aggressive inferences are defaults
<dbooth> alanr: You can have a logic in which the aggressive things  
are assumptions based on getting extra info.
<jar> Discussion of boundary cases is a quagmire. Example of an  
httpRange-14 boundary case: the number three. not a boundary case: a  
person.
<jar> alanr: wants to be clear: are you manipulating the form or  
manipulating the robot? ambiguous -
<jar> timbl: a form is just like a document
just dropped. will call back
yes
<jar> noah, i can't do justice to what you're saying
<jar> tim wants to say "document" instead of "information resource",  
noah doesn't
<Zakim> timbl, you wanted to suggest some more uses for having the  
classes allocated to things.
tim: having disjoint classes gives teeth to this [effort]
<jar> timbl: tabulator is becoming an editor - disjoint classes will  
matter
tim: tabulator is an editor now. The more you know about this the  
thing the better the editor can help you
<dbooth> i have to drop off the phone now, but i'm strongly in favor  
of: 1. specific use cases; and 2. Discussing some specific RDF /  
rules. I think these will best help us forward.
+1 to warnings
<jar> stuart: can we do some backward chaining - start with  
inferences one would *like* to be able to do
<dbooth> I would like us to discuss the RDF / rules I've drafted next  
meeting.
<jar> timbl: alan threw down the gauntlet - how do i know whether a  
web server has lied?
<dbooth> Though I may have a better version by then. :)
<jar> stuart doesn't believe this is a small enough question
<jar> alanr: e.g. "this resource's responses will always be images" -  
a non-image response would be wrong
<timbl> Narrow escape from the Modelling Time rathole, a fine hole of  
great, and not uninteresting to explore.
so, combination of statements about a resource, including, but not  
limited to http responses, should be able to say something wrong
Summary of Action Items

Tim to extract Tabulator's inference rules and put them in wiki
JAR and Alan R to work on specific RDF that one would like to infer,  
and contradictions
TAG to clarify httpRange-14 language to rectify the unfortunate "if  
the resource responds ..."
[End of minutes]




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$Date: 2008/01/08 15:04:37 $