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RE: Vehicle Location Information

From: Justin Park <jongseon.park@lge.com>
Date: Fri, 9 May 2014 10:14:14 +0900
To: <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp>, "'Rees, Kevron'" <kevron.m.rees@intel.com>
Cc: "'Marc Lapierre'" <mlapierre@qnx.com>, "'Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi'" <ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com>, "'Paul Boyes'" <pb@opencar.com>, <public-autowebplatform@w3.org>
Message-ID: <003701cf6b23$fe263d20$fa72b760$@lge.com>
Ideally, WRT should provide as accurate data as possible via single API.

Even in case of phones, the principle is also valid if the phone implementer considered the case that data come from vehicle.
However, in reality, it seems hard to expect that.
In many cases, vehicle access functionality in the phone would require additional framework as a plug-in.
But it doesn't mean that we need a separate interface for that.
If the framework uses the same interface, it will override the existing interface,
so a WebApp will be able to access location data from vehicle even though the WRT in the phone didn't consider vehicle connectivity.

-----Original Message-----
From: Rees, Kevron [mailto:kevron.m.rees@intel.com] 
Sent: Friday, May 09, 2014 6:23 AM
To: ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp
Cc: Marc Lapierre; Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi; 박종선(Justin Park); Paul Boyes; public-autowebplatform@w3.org
Subject: Re: Vehicle Location Information

On Thu, May 8, 2014 at 11:22 AM,  <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp> wrote:
> Hi, Marc-san
>
> Thank you for your question and comment.
> My comments are in line below as shown in simbols of ###
>
>
> - first, by using the existing geolocation APIs, which would return 
> the geolocation data from the smartphone's GPS antenna
>
> ### Right.
>
> - second, using an automotive specific API, which would return the 
> geolocation data of the vehicle's antenna through the remote 
> connection
>
> ###  As I mentioned first, most of Japanese car navigation devices 
> have already higher accuracy (within 1 or 2 meters) in Japan than a 
> smartphone, because error correction of GPS data are done by using 
> gyro, vehicle speed, rotation angle of the wheel and so on There may 
> be a vehicle having a same function for accurate positioning.
>
> We thought that geolocation information and vehicle location 
> information are distinct data in accuracy.
>

The geolocation API already has an option to enable high accuracy
mode: http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html#high-accuracy

It also has an API that tells the application exactly how accurate the signal is: http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html#accuracy

Remember, that the geolocation API isn't only for cell phone GPS positioning data.  It's for all kinds of fixes using many different sources with many different levels of accuracy including IP-based fix, GSM triangulation-based fix, wifi, etc.  The vehicle source is just a different source with different accuracy.  We certainly aren't arguing that each source should be a separate API because they have different levels of accuracy, are we?  By arguing that the vehicle source should be a different API, we are essentially arguing that they all should be separate APIs.  If not, why not?

Regards,
Kevron


> Under such circumstances, we would like to use the higher accurate 
> location data after error corrections are completed, for web-apps of 
> smarthone, not GPS data in smartphone itself.
>
> For this purpose, vehicle location API should be separately defined as 
> an API other than geo-location API.
>
> Best regards,
>
> T.Hirabayashi/KDDI
>
> ----- Original Message -----
> Hi Tatsuhiko-san,
>
> To clarify, am I correct in assuming that you are suggesting that two 
> separate APIs are for the use case where there is a remotely connected 
> smartphone which would like to access geolocation of the vehicle, and 
> that separate APIs will allow the smartphone to access two sources of 
> geolocation information:
>
> - first, by using the existing geolocation APIs, which would return 
> the geolocation data from the smartphone's GPS antenna
> - second, using an automotive specific API, which would return the 
> geolocation data of the vehicle's antenna through the remote 
> connection
>
> In the case where the HTML5 application is running directly in the 
> vehicle's infotainment system, I would assume that both sets of APIs 
> would return the same information.
>
> Is this the idea behind the separate vehicle geolocation API, or is 
> there another use case for this?
>
>
> Best regards,
>
>
> Marc Lapierre
> Team Lead ­ HMI, Engineering Services
> QNX CAR Platform
>
> T +1 613 591 0931 ext. 24889
> F +1 613 591 3579
> E mlapierre@qnx.com
>
> QNX Software Systems Limited
> A subsidiary of BlackBerry
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On 2014-05-08 10:01 AM, "Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi" 
> <ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com
>>
> wrote:
>
>>Hi, Paul-san, Justin-san
>>
>>Thank you for your comments.
>>
>>I thought that in consideration of 2 use-cases, WRT in the phone side 
>>would provide web-apps geo-location data which is generated by phone 
>>itself.
>>
>>Although accurate location data has been calculated in a vehicle or 
>>built-in type navigation device, smartphone apps cannot access these 
>>data in geo-location API.
>>
>>If the previous vehicle location API will be available, we can get 
>>accurate data outside the phone in place of geo location data which is 
>>generated by phone itself.
>>
>>This issue is not implementation detail in a web layer.
>>I believe that vehicle location API will be very simple solution for 2 
>>use-cases.
>>
>>Your understandings would be appreciated.
>>
>>T.Hirabayashi/KDDI
>>
>>
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: 박종선(Justin Park) [mailto:jongseon.park@lge.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 9:33 PM
>>To: 'Paul Boyes'; 'Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi'
>>Cc: 'Rees, Kevron'; public-autowebplatform@w3.org
>>Subject: RE: Vehicle Location Information
>>
>>I’m on the same page with Kevron’s opinion that it is an 
>>implementation issue rather than API definition.
>>
>>>From what I understand, it’s hard to find a reason to have additional 
>>>location API in our specification.
>>
>>Unfortunately, I’m not quite sure about the meaning of the sentence
> below.
>>
>>
>>
>>“In either case, geo-location API generated by these apps will be 
>>terminated within the phone, and it is so difficult for us to access 
>>accurate data.”
>>
>>
>>
>>In consideration of 2 use-cases, WRT in the phone side would provide
> geo
>>location data which is generated by phone itself or comes from vehicle.
>>
>>I have no idea what makes it difficult to access accurate data and how 
>>additional location API makes it easier.
>>
>>I'd be thankful if Mr. Hirabayashi could elaborate a little bit further.
>>
>>
>>
>>Regards,
>>
>>Justin
>>
>>
>>
>>From: Paul Boyes [mailto:pb@opencar.com]
>>Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 7:53 AM
>>To: Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi; 박종선(Justin Park)
>>Cc: Rees, Kevron; public-autowebplatform@w3.org
>>Subject: Re: Vehicle Location Information
>>
>>
>>
>>Hirabayashi-san,
>>
>>
>>
>>This is a great topic as these type of relationships to other specs
> will
>>come up repeatedly.  Thanks for posting.
>>
>>
>>
>>Perhaps a vehicle location api is needed and the group should
> definitely
>>discuss. That said, it seems to me that we are discussing the 
>>implementation layer.  In its introduction, the Geolocation API
>>(http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html) states the following:
>>
>>
>>
>>"The Geolocation API defines a high-level interface to location 
>>information associated only with the device hosting the 
>>implementation, such as latitude and longitude. The API itself is 
>>agnostic of the underlying location information sources. Common 
>>sources of location information include Global Positioning System 
>>(GPS) and location
> inferred
>>from network signals such as IP address, RFID, WiFi and Bluetooth MAC 
>>addresses, and GSM/CDMA cell IDs, as well as user input. No guarantee
> is
>>given that the API returns the device's actual location."
>>
>>
>>
>>Here are some thoughts and questions:
>>
>>
>>
>>―Does the Geolocation API give the web developer the information they 
>>need to develop apps at the web layer in a vehicle?  If not what is it 
>>missing (this may tell us what a vehicle location api might need)?
>>
>>―The Geolocation API has the concept of accuracy as part of the 
>>Coordinates interface.
>>
>>―There is nothing stopping the implementer of the Geolocation API from 
>>using vehicle data in their implementation to make it more accurate.
>>
>>―The Vehicle Information API is geared to application developers at 
>>the web layer not lower implementation layers.
>>
>>―The Vehicle Information API and the Geolocation API can be used in 
>>conjunction with each other to implement higher level application 
>>functionality,
>>
>>
>>
>>I suggest we do the following:
>>
>>
>>
>>―Add a section to the Vehicle Information API laying out it’s 
>>relationship to the Geolocation API.  In my opinion, it would say for 
>>geolocation information use the Geolocation API.
>>
>>―Ask the Geolocation group to add statement the “common sources”
> section
>>of the introduction about using vehicle information.
>>
>>
>>
>>Justin,
>>
>>
>>
>>I would love to hear your thoughts if you have time as well.
>>
>>
>>Paul J. Boyes
>>
>>--------------------------------
>>
>>Mobile:   206-276-9675
>>Skype:  pauljboyes
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>On May 7, 2014, at 2:45 AM, Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi 
>><ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi, Kevron-san
>>
>>If the high-grade IVI system you mentioned is available, high accurate 
>>data will be provided without any problem by geo-location API.
>>
>>However, the fact is that there are some type of IVI system using 
>>smartphone.
>>
>>The following types will have difficulty to get high accurate
> positioning
>>data by using geo-location API even if accurate positioning data is 
>>available in vehicle or built-in navigation device;
>>
>>Case-1
>>  Smartphone (BYOD) is operating as a head unit, and having full 
>>functionality
>>  and connectivity with vehicle;   App run on the phone.
>>Case-2
>>  Smartphone (BYOD) is operating in conjunction with a head unit in 
>>vehicle;
>>  Apps run on the phone.
>>
>>In either case, geo-location API generated by these apps will be 
>>terminated within the phone, and it is so difficult for us to access 
>>accurate data.
>>
>>Therefore, I thought that vehicle location API would be needed as a 
>>distinct API other than geo-location API.
>>
>>
>>Thanks
>>
>>T.Hirabayashi/KDDI
>>
>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Rees, Kevron [mailto:kevron.m.rees@intel.com]
>>Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 8:24 AM
>>To: ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp
>>Cc: Paul Boyes; public-autowebplatform@w3.org
>>Subject: Re: Vehicle Location Information
>>
>>On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 3:44 PM,  <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>Thanks Kevron-san.  See my comments in line below:
>>
>>1 - Is the geolocation API good enough for vehicles?  If not, we need 
>>to work with that group to fix it.
>>
>>#1 As mentioned, the geolocation API is not good enough for vehicles.
>>We need some correction of positioning data acquired by the 
>>geolocation API for vehicle in Japan.
>>
>>
>>Is the correction done in the implementation or the API?  What 
>>additional APIs do you need other than what the geolocation API 
>>provides?  The Location API we had in our spec had even less 
>>information than what is available today in the geolocation spec.
>>
>>I guess what I'm trying to clarify is that the geolocation API 
>>implementation in a vehicle need not be the same as a mobile phone 
>>implementation.  While Position.coords.latitude
>>(http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html#position) might not be 
>>very accurate in a mobile phone, the implementation of the same API 
>>can be very accurate in a vehicle (due to different antenna 
>>positioning, additional data from the vehicle, dead reckoning, etc.).
>>But the API is the same in both.
>>
>>If there are vehicle-specific APIs that need to be added for location 
>>other than what's already in the geolocation spec, I'd like to know 
>>what those are.  Otherwise, we should assume that the geolocation api 
>>implemented in a vehicle will have the most accurate fix possible 
>>-which means it will be a different implementation than a simple 
>>mobile implementation.
>>
>>-Kevron
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>We understand that vehicle location informantion API is needed to get 
>>the result after some corrections of crude positioning data are made.
>>
>>2 - Can implementers of the geolocation API take advantage of vehicle 
>>data to improve accuracy?  I think the answer is "yes".
>>
>>#2 Yes
>>
>>T.Hirabayashi
>>
>>----- Original Message -----
>>It was my understanding, and Paul, please correct me if I'm wrong, 
>>that we felt there should be changes to the geolocation API, that 
>>those changes should be proposed to that group.  We want to avoid 
>>duplicate APIs.  As far as accuracy goes, an OEM can implement the 
>>geolocation API with much more accuracy in the vehicle because they 
>>have more data available (gyro, rotation angle of the wheel, etc).
>>That however is not an API problem.  It's an implementation problem.
>>
>>So there are two questions that need to be solved:
>>
>>1 - Is the geolocation API good enough for vehicles?  If not, we need 
>>to work with that group to fix it.
>>2 - Can implementers of the geolocation API take advantage of vehicle 
>>data to improve accuracy?  I think the answer is "yes".
>>
>>On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 7:37 AM,  <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp> wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>>Hi, Paul-san and Kevron-san
>>
>>While I do not notice it, a definition of the vehicle location 
>>information disappears in first draft spec.
>>
>>In the last f2f meeting, Urata-san pointed out the generic geolocation 
>>information (GPS-based) is not accurate enough. With gyro, vehicle 
>>speed, rotation angle of
>>
>>the
>>
>>
>>
>>wheel and so on, most
>>of car navigation diveces have higher accuracy (within 1 or 2 meters 
>>errors in any roads of
>>Japan) than conventional devices such as a smartphone and tablet.
>>
>>In the case where the OS and the device which web apps are running on 
>>support generic geolocation APIs, it becomes difficult for us to 
>>acquire the accurate positioning data easily if vehicle location 
>>information should be not available as it is.
>>
>>In short, we thought that geolocation information and vehicle location 
>>information are distinct APIs in accuracy.
>>
>>Can you restore the definition of vehicle location information in spec?
>>
>>T.Hirabayashi/KDDI
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
Received on Friday, 9 May 2014 01:15:08 UTC

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