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Re: Vehicle Location Information

From: Paul Boyes <pb@opencar.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 19:49:31 +0000
To: "ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp" <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp>
CC: Marc Lapierre <mlapierre@qnx.com>, Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi <ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com>, 박종선(Justin Park) <jongseon.park@lge.com>, "Rees, Kevron" <kevron.m.rees@intel.com>, "public-autowebplatform@w3.org" <public-autowebplatform@w3.org>
Message-ID: <BC3F710B-0DE8-4173-8EBA-D21E3E1DE64B@opencar.com>
Hirabayashi-san,

Would you give examples as to how the Vehicle Location API might look comparing it to the Geolocation API?  Hard and fast examples would really help me.

Will you be attending the W3C Automotive Business Group meeting on Tuesday?  If so, we should discuss.  Let’s definitely discuss at the face to face.

Thanks,

Paul J. Boyes
--------------------------------
Mobile:   206-276-9675
Skype:  pauljboyes




On May 8, 2014, at 11:22 AM, <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp<mailto:ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp>> <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp<mailto:ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp>> wrote:

Hi, Marc-san

Thank you for your question and comment.
My comments are in line below as shown in simbols of ###


- first, by using the existing geolocation APIs, which would return the
geolocation data from the smartphone's GPS antenna

### Right.

- second, using an automotive specific API, which would return the
geolocation data of the vehicle's antenna through the remote connection

###  As I mentioned first, most of Japanese car navigation devices have
already higher accuracy (within 1 or 2 meters) in Japan than a
smartphone,
because error correction of GPS data are done by using gyro, vehicle
speed,
rotation angle of the wheel and so on
There may be a vehicle having a same function for accurate positioning.

We thought that geolocation information and vehicle location information
are distinct data in accuracy.

Under such circumstances, we would like to use the higher accurate
location
data after error corrections are completed, for web-apps of smarthone,
not GPS data in smartphone itself.

For this purpose, vehicle location API should be separately defined as
an
API other than geo-location API.

Best regards,

T.Hirabayashi/KDDI

----- Original Message -----
Hi Tatsuhiko-san,

To clarify, am I correct in assuming that you are suggesting that two
separate APIs are for the use case where there is a remotely connected
smartphone which would like to access geolocation of the vehicle, and
that
separate APIs will allow the smartphone to access two sources of
geolocation information:

- first, by using the existing geolocation APIs, which would return the
geolocation data from the smartphone's GPS antenna
- second, using an automotive specific API, which would return the
geolocation data of the vehicle's antenna through the remote connection

In the case where the HTML5 application is running directly in the
vehicle's infotainment system, I would assume that both sets of APIs
would
return the same information.

Is this the idea behind the separate vehicle geolocation API, or is
there
another use case for this?


Best regards,


Marc Lapierre
Team Lead ­ HMI, Engineering Services
QNX CAR Platform

T +1 613 591 0931 ext. 24889
F +1 613 591 3579
E mlapierre@qnx.com<mailto:mlapierre@qnx.com>

QNX Software Systems Limited
A subsidiary of BlackBerry







On 2014-05-08 10:01 AM, "Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi" <ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com<mailto:ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com>

wrote:

Hi, Paul-san, Justin-san

Thank you for your comments.

I thought that in consideration of 2 use-cases, WRT in the phone side
would provide
web-apps geo-location data which is generated by phone itself.

Although accurate location data has been calculated in a vehicle or
built-in type navigation
device, smartphone apps cannot access these data in geo-location API.

If the previous vehicle location API will be available, we can get
accurate data outside the
phone in place of geo location data which is generated by phone itself.

This issue is not implementation detail in a web layer.
I believe that vehicle location API will be very simple solution for 2
use-cases.

Your understandings would be appreciated.

T.Hirabayashi/KDDI



-----Original Message-----
From: 박종선(Justin Park) [mailto:jongseon.park@lge.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 9:33 PM
To: 'Paul Boyes'; 'Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi'
Cc: 'Rees, Kevron'; public-autowebplatform@w3.org<mailto:public-autowebplatform@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Vehicle Location Information

I’m on the same page with Kevron’s opinion that it is an implementation
issue rather than API definition.

From what I understand, it’s hard to find a reason to have additional
location API in our specification.

Unfortunately, I’m not quite sure about the meaning of the sentence
below.



“In either case, geo-location API generated by these apps will be
terminated within the phone, and it is so difficult for us to access
accurate data.”



In consideration of 2 use-cases, WRT in the phone side would provide
geo
location data which is generated by phone itself or comes from vehicle.

I have no idea what makes it difficult to access accurate data and how
additional location API makes it easier.

I'd be thankful if Mr. Hirabayashi could elaborate a little bit further.



Regards,

Justin



From: Paul Boyes [mailto:pb@opencar.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 7:53 AM
To: Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi; 박종선(Justin Park)
Cc: Rees, Kevron; public-autowebplatform@w3.org<mailto:public-autowebplatform@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Location Information



Hirabayashi-san,



This is a great topic as these type of relationships to other specs
will
come up repeatedly.  Thanks for posting.



Perhaps a vehicle location api is needed and the group should
definitely
discuss. That said, it seems to me that we are discussing the
implementation layer.  In its introduction, the Geolocation API
(http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html) states the following:



"The Geolocation API defines a high-level interface to location
information associated only with the device hosting the implementation,
such as latitude and longitude. The API itself is agnostic of the
underlying location information sources. Common sources of location
information include Global Positioning System (GPS) and location
inferred
from network signals such as IP address, RFID, WiFi and Bluetooth MAC
addresses, and GSM/CDMA cell IDs, as well as user input. No guarantee
is
given that the API returns the device's actual location."



Here are some thoughts and questions:



―Does the Geolocation API give the web developer the information they
need to develop apps at the web layer in a vehicle?  If not what is it
missing (this may tell us what a vehicle location api might need)?

―The Geolocation API has the concept of accuracy as part of the
Coordinates interface.

―There is nothing stopping the implementer of the Geolocation API from
using vehicle data in their implementation to make it more accurate.

―The Vehicle Information API is geared to application developers at the
web layer not lower implementation layers.

―The Vehicle Information API and the Geolocation API can be used in
conjunction with each other to implement higher level application
functionality,



I suggest we do the following:



―Add a section to the Vehicle Information API laying out it’s
relationship to the Geolocation API.  In my opinion, it would say for
geolocation information use the Geolocation API.

―Ask the Geolocation group to add statement the “common sources”
section
of the introduction about using vehicle information.



Justin,



I would love to hear your thoughts if you have time as well.


Paul J. Boyes

--------------------------------

Mobile:   206-276-9675
Skype:  pauljboyes







On May 7, 2014, at 2:45 AM, Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi
<ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com<mailto:ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com>> wrote:





Hi, Kevron-san

If the high-grade IVI system you mentioned is available, high accurate
data will be provided without any problem by geo-location API.

However, the fact is that there are some type of IVI system using
smartphone.

The following types will have difficulty to get high accurate
positioning
data by using geo-location API even if accurate positioning data is
available in vehicle or built-in navigation device;

Case-1
Smartphone (BYOD) is operating as a head unit, and having full
functionality
and connectivity with vehicle;   App run on the phone.
Case-2
Smartphone (BYOD) is operating in conjunction with a head unit in
vehicle;
Apps run on the phone.

In either case, geo-location API generated by these apps will be
terminated within the phone, and it is so difficult for us to access
accurate data.

Therefore, I thought that vehicle location API would be needed as a
distinct API other than geo-location API.


Thanks

T.Hirabayashi/KDDI

-----Original Message-----
From: Rees, Kevron [mailto:kevron.m.rees@intel.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 8:24 AM
To: ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp<mailto:ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp>
Cc: Paul Boyes; public-autowebplatform@w3.org<mailto:public-autowebplatform@w3.org>
Subject: Re: Vehicle Location Information

On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 3:44 PM,  <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp<mailto:ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp>> wrote:



Thanks Kevron-san.  See my comments in line below:

1 - Is the geolocation API good enough for vehicles?  If not, we need
to work with that group to fix it.

#1 As mentioned, the geolocation API is not good enough for vehicles.
We need some correction of positioning data acquired by the
geolocation API for vehicle in Japan.


Is the correction done in the implementation or the API?  What
additional APIs do you need other than what the geolocation API
provides?  The Location API we had in our spec had even less
information than what is available today in the geolocation spec.

I guess what I'm trying to clarify is that the geolocation API
implementation in a vehicle need not be the same as a mobile phone
implementation.  While Position.coords.latitude
(http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html#position) might not be
very accurate in a mobile phone, the implementation of the same API
can be very accurate in a vehicle (due to different antenna
positioning, additional data from the vehicle, dead reckoning, etc.).
But the API is the same in both.

If there are vehicle-specific APIs that need to be added for location
other than what's already in the geolocation spec, I'd like to know
what those are.  Otherwise, we should assume that the geolocation api
implemented in a vehicle will have the most accurate fix possible
-which means it will be a different implementation than a simple
mobile implementation.

-Kevron




We understand that vehicle location informantion API is needed to get
the
result after some corrections of crude positioning data are made.

2 - Can implementers of the geolocation API take advantage of vehicle
data to improve accuracy?  I think the answer is "yes".

#2 Yes

T.Hirabayashi

----- Original Message -----
It was my understanding, and Paul, please correct me if I'm wrong,
that we felt there should be changes to the geolocation API, that
those changes should be proposed to that group.  We want to avoid
duplicate APIs.  As far as accuracy goes, an OEM can implement the
geolocation API with much more accuracy in the vehicle because they
have more data available (gyro, rotation angle of the wheel, etc).
That however is not an API problem.  It's an implementation problem.

So there are two questions that need to be solved:

1 - Is the geolocation API good enough for vehicles?  If not, we need
to work with that group to fix it.
2 - Can implementers of the geolocation API take advantage of vehicle
data to improve accuracy?  I think the answer is "yes".

On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 7:37 AM,  <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp<mailto:ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp>> wrote:



Hi, Paul-san and Kevron-san

While I do not notice it, a definition of the vehicle location
information disappears in
first draft spec.

In the last f2f meeting, Urata-san pointed out the generic geolocation
information (GPS-based)
is not accurate enough. With gyro, vehicle speed, rotation angle of

the



wheel and so on, most
of car navigation diveces have higher accuracy (within 1 or 2 meters
errors in any roads of
Japan) than conventional devices such as a smartphone and tablet.

In the case where the OS and the device which web apps are running on
support generic
geolocation APIs, it becomes difficult for us to acquire the accurate
positioning data easily
if vehicle location information should be not available as it is.

In short, we thought that geolocation information and vehicle location
information are distinct
APIs in accuracy.

Can you restore the definition of vehicle location information in spec?

T.Hirabayashi/KDDI

















Received on Thursday, 8 May 2014 19:50:01 UTC

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