W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-autowebplatform@w3.org > May 2014

RE: Vehicle Location Information

From: Justin Park <jongseon.park@lge.com>
Date: Thu, 8 May 2014 21:33:06 +0900
To: "'Paul Boyes'" <pb@opencar.com>, "'Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi'" <ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com>
Cc: "'Rees, Kevron'" <kevron.m.rees@intel.com>, <public-autowebplatform@w3.org>
Message-ID: <02e501cf6ab9$aa148800$fe3d9800$@lge.com>
I’m on the same page with Kevron’s opinion that it is an implementation issue rather than API definition.

>From what I understand, it’s hard to find a reason to have additional location API in our specification.

Unfortunately, I’m not quite sure about the meaning of the sentence below.


“In either case, geo-location API generated by these apps will be terminated within
the phone, and it is so difficult for us to access accurate data.”


In consideration of 2 use-cases, WRT in the phone side would provide geo location data which is generated by phone itself or comes from vehicle.

I have no idea what makes it difficult to access accurate data and how additional location API makes it easier.

I'd be thankful if Mr. Hirabayashi could elaborate a little bit further.





From: Paul Boyes [mailto:pb@opencar.com] 
Sent: Thursday, May 08, 2014 7:53 AM
To: Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi; 박종선(Justin Park)
Cc: Rees, Kevron; public-autowebplatform@w3.org
Subject: Re: Vehicle Location Information




This is a great topic as these type of relationships to other specs will come up repeatedly.  Thanks for posting.


Perhaps a vehicle location api is needed and the group should definitely discuss. That said, it seems to me that we are discussing the implementation layer.  In its introduction, the Geolocation API (http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html) states the following:


"The Geolocation API defines a high-level interface to location information associated only with the device hosting the implementation, such as latitude and longitude. The API itself is agnostic of the underlying location information sources. Common sources of location information include Global Positioning System (GPS) and location inferred from network signals such as IP address, RFID, WiFi and Bluetooth MAC addresses, and GSM/CDMA cell IDs, as well as user input. No guarantee is given that the API returns the device's actual location."


Here are some thoughts and questions:


—Does the Geolocation API give the web developer the information they need to develop apps at the web layer in a vehicle?  If not what is it missing (this may tell us what a vehicle location api might need)?

—The Geolocation API has the concept of accuracy as part of the Coordinates interface.

—There is nothing stopping the implementer of the Geolocation API from using vehicle data in their implementation to make it more accurate.

—The Vehicle Information API is geared to application developers at the web layer not lower implementation layers.

—The Vehicle Information API and the Geolocation API can be used in conjunction with each other to implement higher level application functionality,


I suggest we do the following:


—Add a section to the Vehicle Information API laying out it’s relationship to the Geolocation API.  In my opinion, it would say for geolocation information use the Geolocation API.

—Ask the Geolocation group to add statement the “common sources” section of the introduction about using vehicle information. 




I would love to hear your thoughts if you have time as well.

Paul J. Boyes


Mobile:   206-276-9675    
Skype:  pauljboyes    




On May 7, 2014, at 2:45 AM, Tatsuhiko Hirabayashi <ta-hirabayashi@kddi.com> wrote:

Hi, Kevron-san

If the high-grade IVI system you mentioned is available, high accurate data will 
be provided without any problem by geo-location API.

However, the fact is that there are some type of IVI system using smartphone.

The following types will have difficulty to get high accurate positioning data 
by using geo-location API even if accurate positioning data is available 
in vehicle or built-in navigation device;

  Smartphone (BYOD) is operating as a head unit, and having full functionality 
  and connectivity with vehicle;   App run on the phone.
  Smartphone (BYOD) is operating in conjunction with a head unit in vehicle;
  Apps run on the phone.

In either case, geo-location API generated by these apps will be terminated within
the phone, and it is so difficult for us to access accurate data.

Therefore, I thought that vehicle location API would be needed as a distinct API 
other than geo-location API.



-----Original Message-----
From: Rees, Kevron [mailto:kevron.m.rees@intel.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, May 07, 2014 8:24 AM
To: ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp
Cc: Paul Boyes; public-autowebplatform@w3.org
Subject: Re: Vehicle Location Information

On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 3:44 PM,  <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp> wrote:

Thanks Kevron-san.  See my comments in line below:

1 - Is the geolocation API good enough for vehicles?  If not, we need 
to work with that group to fix it.

#1 As mentioned, the geolocation API is not good enough for vehicles.
We need some correction of positioning data acquired by the 
geolocation API for vehicle in Japan.

Is the correction done in the implementation or the API?  What
additional APIs do you need other than what the geolocation API
provides?  The Location API we had in our spec had even less
information than what is available today in the geolocation spec.

I guess what I'm trying to clarify is that the geolocation API
implementation in a vehicle need not be the same as a mobile phone
implementation.  While Position.coords.latitude
(http://dev.w3.org/geo/api/spec-source.html#position) might not be
very accurate in a mobile phone, the implementation of the same API
can be very accurate in a vehicle (due to different antenna
positioning, additional data from the vehicle, dead reckoning, etc.).
But the API is the same in both.

If there are vehicle-specific APIs that need to be added for location
other than what's already in the geolocation spec, I'd like to know
what those are.  Otherwise, we should assume that the geolocation api
implemented in a vehicle will have the most accurate fix possible
-which means it will be a different implementation than a simple
mobile implementation.


We understand that vehicle location informantion API is needed to get
result after some corrections of crude positioning data are made.

2 - Can implementers of the geolocation API take advantage of vehicle
data to improve accuracy?  I think the answer is "yes".

#2 Yes


----- Original Message -----
It was my understanding, and Paul, please correct me if I'm wrong,
that we felt there should be changes to the geolocation API, that
those changes should be proposed to that group.  We want to avoid
duplicate APIs.  As far as accuracy goes, an OEM can implement the
geolocation API with much more accuracy in the vehicle because they
have more data available (gyro, rotation angle of the wheel, etc).
That however is not an API problem.  It's an implementation problem.

So there are two questions that need to be solved:

1 - Is the geolocation API good enough for vehicles?  If not, we need
to work with that group to fix it.
2 - Can implementers of the geolocation API take advantage of vehicle
data to improve accuracy?  I think the answer is "yes".

On Tue, May 6, 2014 at 7:37 AM,  <ta-hirabayashi@kddi-ri.jp> wrote:

Hi, Paul-san and Kevron-san

While I do not notice it, a definition of the vehicle location
information disappears in
first draft spec.

In the last f2f meeting, Urata-san pointed out the generic geolocation
information (GPS-based)
is not accurate enough. With gyro, vehicle speed, rotation angle of


wheel and so on, most
of car navigation diveces have higher accuracy (within 1 or 2 meters
errors in any roads of
Japan) than conventional devices such as a smartphone and tablet.

In the case where the OS and the device which web apps are running on
support generic
geolocation APIs, it becomes difficult for us to acquire the accurate
positioning data easily
if vehicle location information should be not available as it is.

In short, we thought that geolocation information and vehicle location
information are distinct
APIs in accuracy.

Can you restore the definition of vehicle location information in spec?



Received on Thursday, 8 May 2014 12:33:41 UTC

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