Re: Auto-WCAG Meeting, Thursday (July 13th)

Hi all,

Thank you for a great meeting today.
Here are the notes from the meeting:


[16:11] <Wilco> 1) Test cases structure     https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/37

[16:12] <anne_thyme> Anne will be taking notes
[16:12] <anne_thyme> Kasper from Siteimprove joins the call for the first time. Front end developer on Siteimprove’s accessibility checking engine
[16:12] <anne_thyme> New test rule structure on it's way. Wilco has set up a format for us to use
[16:13] <Wilco> https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/37/files#diff-f1aa609ff64b13f1f7ba5ac1660f394b

[16:14] <anne_thyme> template to be used when creating test cases
[16:14] <anne_thyme> JSON file that formats test cases that can be read out by our own tools
[16:14] <anne_thyme> ACT Task Force is working on a test case repository
[16:15] <anne_thyme> Idea is that tool builders can share their test repositories
[16:16] <Wilco> https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/37/files#diff-3f998c00cdf7e85882d4e748ccd418c0

[16:16] == EmmaJPR [~EmmaJPR@public.cloak] has joined #auto-wcag
[16:18] <anne_thyme> name = gives a name to the format, license, a11y-selectors - passedSelector is anything that passes the check
[16:18] <anne_thyme> a11y-testcases has a list of URLs + the rules that it's supposed to test + tests
[16:20] <Wilco> https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/37/files#diff-c486d0801a9e364c20c97d60b2173373

[16:20] <anne_thyme> idea is to compare the failures found by tool to these fails and see if it finds the same failures
[16:20] <Wilco> https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/37/files#diff-c486d0801a9e364c20c97d60b2173373

[16:24] <Wilco> https://www.w3.org/WAI/GL/task-forces/conformance-testing/wiki/Testing_Resources

[16:25] == JasonDuan [~JasonDuan@public.cloak] has joined #auto-wcag
[16:26] <anne_thyme> Emma informs about UK .gov test where a bad web site was created and tested with different tools for comparison
[16:28] <anne_thyme> Wilco asks if everyone is okay with merging this in
[16:29] <EmmaJPR> Blog article at https://accessibility.blog.gov.uk/2017/02/24/what-we-found-when-we-tested-tools-on-the-worlds-least-accessible-webpage/

[16:30] <anne_thyme> Wilco: we should go through existing rules and add test cases, we can maybe even use open source libraries
[16:30] <EmmaJPR> It links out to https://alphagov.github.io/accessibility-tool-audit/test-cases.html

[16:30] <Wilco> 2) Rule: Table headers-id     https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/38
[16:30] <anne_thyme> no further comments for test case format, Wilco is merging it in
[16:32] <anne_thyme> Table headers-id has been split into two - want to discuss if it should be like this. Split into 2: 1) does it live up to the technical specification, 2) does it make sense
[16:32] <Wilco> https://github.com/kensgists/auto-wcag/blob/620276f0d26b0b2efcc1dc4edd59711f7c1900be/_drafts/SC1-3-1-tables-headers-id-correct.md

[16:32] <Wilco> https://github.com/kensgists/auto-wcag/blob/620276f0d26b0b2efcc1dc4edd59711f7c1900be/_drafts/SC1-3-1-tables-headers-id-valid.md

[16:33] <anne_thyme> -valid one: will this be caught by a parser?
[16:35] <anne_thyme> selector will not work as a raw selector, nested tables cause issues
[16:35] <anne_thyme> idea is to put it in a loop
[16:38] <Wilco> table > * > tr > *
[16:39] <anne_thyme> Wilco has tested and suggest 3 generational CSS selectors
[16:39] <anne_thyme> browsers enforce the table structure
[16:42] <anne_thyme> Ken: the core of the problem is constraining the selector to one single table - need to make sure that the selector is only operating at one table at a time
[16:44] <anne_thyme> Ken is the -valid rule already covered by the assumption that the table is well formed?
[16:44] <anne_thyme> Wilco: Probably not
[16:45] <Wilco> https://github.com/kensgists/auto-wcag/blob/620276f0d26b0b2efcc1dc4edd59711f7c1900be/_drafts/SC1-3-1-tables-headers-id-correct.md

[16:45] <anne_thyme> Ken: the second rule, SC1-3-1-tables-headers-id-correct, makes sure headers are doing what you want them to do
[16:47] <anne_thyme> First step asks if cell and header is related, second step asks if headers are in the right order
[16:51] <anne_thyme> Emma: if this only applies to data tables, you should be filtering out tables without a th, since that is what is recommended for layout tables
[16:52] <cpandhi> https://www.w3.org/TR/2014/WD-html51-20140617/tabular-data.html

[16:52] <anne_thyme> Ken: testing shows that scope does nothing in a screen reader, header ids have pretty good support
[16:53] <anne_thyme> Charu's link has description of data tables vs layout tables
[16:54] <Wilco> https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/39

[16:54] <anne_thyme> Wilco: bad support in tables in general in screen readers, only way to keep them accessible is to keep them simple, unfortunately
[16:55] <Wilco> https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/39/files

[16:55] <EmmaJPR> Ian Pouncey did a good job of summarising the tables algorithm at http://www.bbc.co.uk/guidelines/futuremedia/accessibility/html/tables.shtml

[16:55] <anne_thyme> Wilco: one of the four rules to replace our old image rule
[16:55] <anne_thyme> test cases added to this one
[16:55] <Wilco> https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/blob/4fd4f9b58ceaf477e338c6b0e11082c7f49352c0/_drafts/SC1-1-1-decorative-images.md

[16:56] <anne_thyme> Wilco: take a couple of minutes to read through, see if we can merge it in today
[16:58] <Wilco> The contenteditable attribute is not used in such a way that it impacts which element is, or is not interactive
[17:01] <anne_thyme> On assumptions: here, and in general, we need a bit of explanation on why they are there
[17:01] <EmmaJPR> +1
[17:01] == JasonDuan [~JasonDuan@public.cloak] has quit ["Page closed"]
[17:02] == cpandhi [~cpandhi@public.cloak] has quit ["Page closed"]
[17:03] <anne_thyme> Kasper: this css selector will not catch cases where alt attribute consists of white space
[17:04] <anne_thyme> Wilco: this is worth testing, because this would also affect roles...
[17:04] <anne_thyme> Kasper did a quick test - he's right
[17:05] <EmmaJPR> https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31382881/css-selector-for-empty-or-whitespace

[17:06] <anne_thyme> Wilco will look into whitespaces and css selectors
[17:07] <anne_thyme> Wilco: we will now write rules together, for the new people to see how we write rules. Emma will lead this session
[17:07] <Wilco> https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/blob/master/_drafts/SC1-1-1-informative-images.md
[17:10] <anne_thyme> ... rule about informative images, the opposite of decorative images - the images are actually the content
[17:12] <anne_thyme> "Editor note: This rule is designed to replace (parts of) SC1-1-1-text-alternative" - which was really complex, so it's being replaced by 4 other ones
[17:12] <anne_thyme> "Background" is empty, so we probably need to add some links, to related techniques
[17:13] <Wilco> https://www.w3.org/WAI/tutorials/images/informative/

[17:14] <anne_thyme> Emma is logged into her github account and using the "edit" to make changes to the rule
[17:15] <Wilco> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G94.html

[17:15] <Wilco> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/H37.html

[17:17] <EmmaJPR> https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/compare/master...EmmaJP:patch-1

[17:18] <anne_thyme> Adding a comment - can then create a pull request and/or merge
[17:19] <anne_thyme> Wilco: pull requests are always on a branch, if you merge it in and then want to change something else, it will have to be a new pull request
[17:20] <anne_thyme> a change is a commit, a pull request can have multiple commits
[17:22] <anne_thyme> Wilco leaves pull requests open as we discuss. Only if they get really big, do we merge in before we complete a rule. Normally we leave the pull request open while we work on a rule
[17:24] <cezary> yes, SourceTree is very good and easy to use
[17:24] <anne_thyme> Wilco: If you want to keep your version up to date with your local repository, you have to do something yourself or have tools to keep it updatedm, e.g. sourcetree, which is free
[17:24] <anne_thyme> Wilco recommends staying on github, on the website
[17:26] <anne_thyme> Emma doesn't think staying in sync is such a great problem, if you are working on one thing, while everyone else is working on something else
[17:26] <anne_thyme> Wilco would like to hear from the new people on the call, what they think
[17:27] <anne_thyme> Kim thinks it's interesting to see how auto-wcag is working on these things. Hope she's able to add these meetings to her schedule
[17:27] <anne_thyme> Kasper: interesting, same things as he's doing in his day to day work. Great to have other people to discuss this to, besides colleagues
[17:28] <anne_thyme> Wilco thinks it's great to get many people's opinions on rules to make them as good as possible
[17:29] <anne_thyme> Cezary has just been observing to see how things work. Is an accessibility engineer, has also build a tool, similar to others. Expect to participate actively going forward
[17:31] <anne_thyme> Emma on peer-developing: good idea to work more people together on it, but it takes a bit of time setting things up
[17:31] <anne_thyme> Wilco: we should work on making a bit more smooth
[17:31] <anne_thyme> next meeting is on August 10
[17:31] <anne_thyme> Emma will be on vacation
[17:32] <anne_thyme> Ken has enough on his plate
[17:32] <anne_thyme> Jose has previously proposed work on "can't tell" results
[17:34] <anne_thyme> Jose will work on updating some of the rules with can't tell, but not until September due to vacation
[17:34] <cezary> If there is anything I can work on then let me know.
[17:35] <anne_thyme> Kasper and Wilco will work together on image rules for next meeting
[17:36] <anne_thyme> Wilco will look into getting screen share possibilities from Shadi




Anne Thyme Nørregaard
Accessibility Product Owner

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From: Wilco Fiers <wilco.fiers@deque.com>
Date: Tuesday, 11 July 2017 at 11.21
To: Auto-WCAG List <public-auto-wcag@w3.org>
Subject: Auto-WCAG Meeting, Thursday (July 13th)
Resent-From: <public-auto-wcag@w3.org>
Resent-Date: Tuesday, 11 July 2017 at 11.21

Hello again everyone!

This Thursday (July 13th) we're going to have another one of our monthly Auto-WCAG telcos. I hope you'll all be able to attend again. Please review the GitHub issues on the agenda before the meeting.

The meeting will be from 16:00 CEST to 17:30 CEST. See http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=Auto-WCAG+Rule+design&iso=20170723T16&p1=16&ah=1&am=30<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.timeanddate.com%2Fworldclock%2Ffixedtime.html%3Fmsg%3DAuto-WCAG%2BRule%2Bdesign%26iso%3D20170723T16%26p1%3D16%26ah%3D1%26am%3D30&data=02%7C01%7Cath%40siteimprove.com%7C96626c80ffd248c8aa8208d4c83e51fb%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636353617377030910&sdata=yKluD2%2Fkezd8DJuXjDao2m1BQ%2BzfPcIYf0ddM1DI4dg%3D&reserved=0> for your local time.

To join the meeting online, go to: https://mit.webex.com/mit/j.php?MTID=m5a9a1f7eedb51bddd4b8939294813ecb<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fmit.webex.com%2Fmit%2Fj.php%3FMTID%3Dm5a9a1f7eedb51bddd4b8939294813ecb&data=02%7C01%7Cath%40siteimprove.com%7C96626c80ffd248c8aa8208d4c83e51fb%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636353617377030910&sdata=IeOsbFD1fi9CzVmY6lyXvjFak9Jgen4vg9TZ5PgnSfc%3D&reserved=0>

Meeting number:  644 204 080
Password:        Ask in IRC

You can also dial in by phone +1-617-324-0000<tel:(617)%20324-0000>

Join us on IRC at irc.w3.org/?channels=#auto-wcag<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=http%3A%2F%2Firc.w3.org%2F%3Fchannels%3D%23auto-wcag&data=02%7C01%7Cath%40siteimprove.com%7C96626c80ffd248c8aa8208d4c83e51fb%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636353617377030910&sdata=c55cCPDLjfzxwS%2Fj2gDyMlWmrLM%2FBq2MBlLtJJMMWDg%3D&reserved=0>

Agenda
------
1) Test cases structure
    https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/37<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fauto-wcag%2Fauto-wcag%2Fpull%2F37&data=02%7C01%7Cath%40siteimprove.com%7C96626c80ffd248c8aa8208d4c83e51fb%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636353617377040918&sdata=eB1IgmzvJyHZs2TbOk0glny8dqZwAn6Qh0BxRoj6En8%3D&reserved=0>

2) Rule: Table headers-id
    https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/38<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fauto-wcag%2Fauto-wcag%2Fpull%2F38&data=02%7C01%7Cath%40siteimprove.com%7C96626c80ffd248c8aa8208d4c83e51fb%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636353617377040918&sdata=NZ4Tav4zxKnvt2ZV9Kc2243424mdnQaQzMhXmQGYTEY%3D&reserved=0>

3) Rule: Link-style-in-text
    https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/35<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fauto-wcag%2Fauto-wcag%2Fpull%2F35&data=02%7C01%7Cath%40siteimprove.com%7C96626c80ffd248c8aa8208d4c83e51fb%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636353617377040918&sdata=wFZjU%2F0rm4nNwAFxEWKnwLNU35LW%2FmTYvNtt494RZlg%3D&reserved=0>

4) Early darft: Name-Role-Value-id
    https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/36<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fauto-wcag%2Fauto-wcag%2Fpull%2F36&data=02%7C01%7Cath%40siteimprove.com%7C96626c80ffd248c8aa8208d4c83e51fb%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636353617377040918&sdata=M0ID00fcXAIpuZA0zd8A7hNA6IsOOcD6VikGShofOOo%3D&reserved=0>

5) Complete draft: decorative-images
    https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/39<https://na01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fauto-wcag%2Fauto-wcag%2Fpull%2F39&data=02%7C01%7Cath%40siteimprove.com%7C96626c80ffd248c8aa8208d4c83e51fb%7Cad30e5bc301d40dba10a0e8d40abe0f9%7C0%7C0%7C636353617377040918&sdata=eFQIaxWSOdDu7ys2HTbI42uSHtz6cyM6NQw7RAg2pVk%3D&reserved=0>

6) Let's write together: New image rules (30 min)

7) Upcoming meetings: August 10th, September 14th, October 12th


Regards,

--
Wilco Fiers
Senior Accessibility Engineer - Co-facilitator WCAG-ACT - Chair Auto-WCAG
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