- From: Moe Kraft <maureen_kraft@us.ibm.com>
- Date: Thu, 9 Jun 2016 15:45:37 +0000
- To: Frank Berker <fb@ftb-esv.de>
- Cc: "public-auto-wcag@w3.org" <public-auto-wcag@w3.org>
- Message-Id: <OF3A06495A.6D324331-ON00257FCD.005615C0-85257FCD.005690FE@notes.na.collabserv.c>
Hi All, The RRSAgent was not running during the meeting. Below you will find a transcript. Regards, Moe Meeting minutes: Auto WCAG Meeting 9 June 2016 16:00 CEST - 17:30 CEST Attendees: Wilco, Frank Berker, Emma J, Mary Jo Mueller, Charu Pandhi, Moe Kraft [10:01] == MoeKraft [~MoeKraft@public.cloak] has joined #auto-wcag [10:02] <Wilco> hello everyone [10:02] <emmaPR-BBC> Hello ... my skype is emmaj_pr [10:02] <Wilco> Frank, you want to set up the call or do I? [10:02] <Frank> it's your turn :) [10:03] <Avneesh> My skype ID: avneeshsingh [10:03] <Wilco> xD is it now. if anything, it's been my turn since forever [10:04] <Frank> Strong power means high responsibility [10:05] <Wilco> Wow, Skype has a share feature now? [10:05] <Wilco> let's see if this works: https://join.skype.com/j8kUv3lKLIAD [10:05] == maryjom [~chatzilla@public.cloak] has joined #auto-wcag [10:07] <Wilco> hi maryjo, do you have a skype name? [10:07] <maryjom> trying to remember it... maryjom, I believe [10:08] <cpandhi> my skype login is cpandhi, trying to recover the password, have not used it in a while, sorry [10:10] <Wilco> mary jo, cpandhi, you've been added [10:11] * maryjom I just figured out where my skype name is kept. Haven't used it in so long. My ID is actually maryjom4242 [10:13] <Wilco> invitation sent [10:14] <Wilco> wow, this is failing significantly today [10:15] <Wilco> alright, sorry everyone, some technical issues with skype [10:16] <Wilco> using gotomeeting today: https://www.gotomeet.me/auto-wcag [10:16] * Wilco You can also dial in using your phone. United States +1 (669) 224-3412 Access Code: 465-058-213 [10:20] <MoeKraft> Hi Wilco, I am on the Go To Meeting [10:21] <emmaPR-BBC> Me too [10:21] <MoeKraft> I can hear you [10:21] <MoeKraft> Can you hear me? [10:23] == Avneesh_ [~Avneesh@public.cloak] has joined #auto-wcag [10:23] <MoeKraft> scribenick: Moe [10:24] <Wilco> 1) Action Items: https://www.w3.org/community/auto-wcag/wiki/Action_items [10:24] <MoeKraft> Wilco: How is 1.2 going? [10:25] <MoeKraft> Frank: Very rough draft available [10:25] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Can we get something at end of workshop next month? [10:25] <MoeKraft> Frank: I think so. [10:25] == Avneesh_ [~Avneesh@public.cloak] has quit ["Page closed"] [10:25] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Let's shoot for that [10:26] == Avneesh [~Avneesh@public.cloak] has quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds] [10:26] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Got off phone with Jon Gunderson. Has very different approach to testing than we have done so far. I will cover it in our next call. [10:26] == Avneesh [~Avneesh@public.cloak] has joined #auto-WCAG [10:27] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Will migrate to GitHub. It will be a lot easier to collaborate in GitHub repo [10:27] <MoeKraft> Wilco: About 2 months ago started moving to GitHub. Will look at today but not yet done. WIP [10:27] <MoeKraft> Wilco: We need more tests [10:27] <Wilco> 2) Review SC1-4-1-a: https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/issues/3 [10:28] <Wilco> https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/6 [10:28] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Made some fixes to the format. Can see if you follow link to pull request [10:29] <MoeKraft> Wilco: FRank please speak to the comments [10:29] <MoeKraft> Frank: Any use of border will make links distinguisable but issue if border color is same as background color [10:29] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Valid point [10:30] <MoeKraft> Frank: Selector: It's nearest anchor has different color as color of link. [10:30] <MoeKraft> Frank: Isn't that part of test [10:30] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Reason we have that in there. If colors are identical then it's not a color problem. [10:31] <MoeKraft> Wilco: There would not be an issue based on color if the color is the same [10:31] <MoeKraft> Frank: Exclude color because it would not be relevant? [10:32] <MoeKraft> Wilco: My reasoning here is that the guideline / success criteria is about not discriminating based on color. If the color is used must provide something to distinguish from color but if same doesn't apply [10:32] <MoeKraft> q+ [10:32] * Zakim sees MoeKraft on the speaker queue [10:35] <cpandhi> q+ [10:35] * Zakim sees MoeKraft, cpandhi on the speaker queue [10:35] <MoeKraft> Moe: There is a requirement for link color to have a 3:1 contrast ratio to surrounding text. [10:35] <cpandhi> https://www.w3.org/TR/WCAG20-TECHS/G183.html [10:36] <MoeKraft> Emma: Can we clarify? So it cannot be color alone but something other than color that makes it appear different? [10:36] <MoeKraft> G183: Using a contrast ratio of 3:1 with surrounding text and providing additional visual cues on focus for links or controls where color alone is used to identify them [10:37] <MoeKraft> Wilco: If focused or hovered by mouse we need to style to distinguish link text. [10:38] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Emma, so if color is used, WCAG only requires 3:1 ratio until focus or hover? [10:38] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Yes [10:38] <MoeKraft> Emma: BBC rules do not allow this [10:39] <MoeKraft> Wilco: IF the color is the same, then the link text must have distinguishing feature to identify it as a link [10:39] <emmaPR-BBC> BBC rules require more than only a colour different to distinguish links [10:40] <MoeKraft> Frank: Failure 73 states that we cannot use color alone [10:40] <MoeKraft> Frank: https://www.w3.org/TR/2016/NOTE-WCAG20-TECHS-20160317/F73 [10:41] <MoeKraft> MaryJo: The sufficient technique G183 and Failure 73 disagree with each other [10:41] <MoeKraft> MaryJo: We should take this back to WCAG WG [10:41] <MoeKraft> MaryJo: G183 indicates that you can use color until focus/hover [10:42] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Yes, this definitely conflicts [10:42] <MoeKraft> Moe: I will take this issue to the WCAG WG [10:43] <Wilco> https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/blob/sc1-4-1-a-patch1/drafts/SC1-4-1-a.md [10:43] <MoeKraft> MaryJo: This is why we see different interpretations [10:44] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Have people had opportunities to review these? [10:44] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Do we want to walk through this? [10:44] <MoeKraft> Moe: Might help to walk through it [10:44] <emmaPR-BBC> :) [10:44] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Going through top to bottom [10:45] <MoeKraft> Wilco: We've been calling these testcases up until this point. The term "rules" has snuck in the last two months. We need to start calling rules [10:45] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Firstly, Description, What this rule does [10:45] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Links to relevant documentation [10:46] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Thirdly, assumptions [10:46] <MoeKraft> Wilco: important to auto-wcag work. When testing for accessibility. If you want to do accessibility for rules, you are making assumptions because we don't have an expert present to figure out exceptions. There are always exceptions to rules. [10:47] <MoeKraft> Wilco: You can always provide an alternative version of certain page. [10:47] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Assumptions are explicit about in what scenarios things might break down. [10:48] <MoeKraft> Wilco: G183 technique, minimum contrast requirement is not spelled out in 1.4.1 success criterion [10:48] <MoeKraft> Wilco: WCAG SC does not state if you have 3:1 minimum contrast between link text and surrounding text is okay. This is an assumption based on G183 [10:49] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Expanded properties, e.g. border, can help make links distinguishable. [10:49] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Can use underlines, or you can make bold, you can put border around link. These assumptions are the things we expect to look for. [10:50] <emmaPR-BBC> yep [10:52] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Third assumption, any use of border can make link distinguishable but as Frank points out, if same color as background that would not be the case. Need to adjust assumption. [10:52] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Assumption that different font is presented to user. Does this make the link distiguishable? Font might look exactly the same. [10:52] <cpandhi> do not see underline in the assumptions [10:53] <MoeKraft> Wilco: aria-bold is distinguishable because it's bold. [10:53] <MoeKraft> Arial-bold [10:53] <emmaPR-BBC> yes [10:54] <MoeKraft> Emma: Should we check if we are testing computed style? [10:55] <MoeKraft> Wilco: If you cannot get computed style, would not be able to test this rule [10:55] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Test properties, meta data for each test or rule properties [10:58] <MoeKraft> Wilco: There's a test name, criterion, mode (automatic, semiautomatic), test environment (what capabilities needed, e.g. remote control user agent = web driver), test subject (web page, DOM fragment, collection of pages) [10:58] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Test subject example: to test navigation order, need to test multiple pages [10:58] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Terminology comes from earl standard [10:59] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Evaluation and Report Language (EARL) [10:59] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Test procedure: two parts, selector and series of tests [10:59] <MoeKraft> Wilco: In selector, you find the element under test, e.g. links [11:00] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Test Steps [11:01] <MoeKraft> Wilco: For each step we determine if automated or require manual input [11:01] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Go through procedures to get to an if statement, pass, fail or next step [11:01] == Avneesh [~Avneesh@public.cloak] has quit ["Page closed"] [11:04] <MoeKraft> s/Arial-bold/'Arial Bold' [11:04] <MoeKraft> Emma: Thank you Wilco! This is very thorough [11:05] <MoeKraft> Wilco: A lot of rules leave it up to developer to figure out how to write the rule. These procedures help give details for people that are familiar with industry [11:05] <MoeKraft> Emma: WCAG stuff is the rules, and we were using test cases, maybe we should continue to use the term test cases [11:06] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Interesting. Judy also asked if 'rules' is the right term to use. We seem to be converging on 'rule' [11:06] <MoeKraft> Emma: Need to find the middle ground between rules and tess [11:06] <MoeKraft> test [11:06] <MoeKraft> tests [11:07] <MoeKraft> The meeting will be from 16:00 CEST to 17:00 CEST. Meeting Number: 646 171 586 Meeting Password: Please obtain your meeting password from your host. To join the online meeting (Now from mobile devices!) [11:08] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Are we good to go to 5:30? Let's see if we can cover other issues? [11:08] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Frank, you wanted to talk about our workflow [11:08] <emmaPR-BBC> Moe, think that is the other auto-wcag meetings [11:08] <MoeKraft> Frank: We should talk a little bit about how our first review on GitHub went [11:09] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Now that we have issues, we can sort. How do we close or resolve issues? [11:09] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Do we create a ticket for every review? [11:10] <MoeKraft> Wilco: WE should probably close the ticket once we've done our review and create new ones [11:10] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Is that doable? This adds a little overhead. [11:11] <MoeKraft> Wilco: We could leave it open and leave it up to the rule author to manage [11:12] <Frank> Soory, My micro got issues [11:12] <MoeKraft> Emma: I'm new to conversation but not yet familiar with who has been working on stuff and the process. [11:13] <MoeKraft> Emma: Great to see feature/rule files. Don't know the process for getting involved. Can you cover the process? [11:13] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Used to be we would put rule on wiki and put which rules to review on agenda and put their comments in discussion page and we would cover in meeting. [11:13] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Now that we are on GitHub still exploring best way to move forward. [11:14] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Still exploring. [11:14] <MoeKraft> Emma: will they come out via email? [11:14] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Best way to contribute to review items on agenda before hand and put comments online. [11:14] <MoeKraft> Emma: Ok [11:15] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Put comments right into GitHub [11:15] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Need to clarify in email as well [11:15] <MoeKraft> Frank: Ok, I have fixed my mic [11:16] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Frank any comments? [11:16] <MoeKraft> Frank: I suggest a pull request for all rules. And finalized rules may go to rules folder. Thinking about it. [11:17] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Will leave this workflow item to you. I'll let you explore and see what works best [11:17] <MoeKraft> Frank: Yes. Good with me. [11:17] <MoeKraft> Wilco: 15 minutes left. [11:17] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Discussion on format. What did we want to discuss? [11:17] <MoeKraft> Frank: Markdown is fine [11:17] <MoeKraft> Wilco: What was the question [11:18] <MoeKraft> Frank: We have the template and we face some issues. So I thought we should talk about those issues [11:18] <Wilco> https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/pull/2/files [11:18] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Structure updates [11:19] <cpandhi> issues with my head set, will change for next time [11:19] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Let's look at structural update pull request I created. [11:19] <MoeKraft> Wilco: I've done update to styling. See Github.io [11:20] <Wilco> http://auto-wcag.github.io/auto-wcag/dist/ [11:20] <emmaPR-BBC> Ta [11:20] <Wilco> http://auto-wcag.github.io/auto-wcag/dist/rules/SC1-1-1-aria-describedby.html [11:21] <MoeKraft> Wilco: There is an empty version of the rule template [11:22] <Wilco> https://github.com/WilcoFiers/auto-wcag/blob/6250942b2ab2f7f9d4a6bfc4461a19ab29011945/rule-template.md [11:23] <MoeKraft> Wilco: I've made two templates based on the templates on wiki based on markdown [11:24] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Based some of the rules on this new format [11:24] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Really just formatting [11:24] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Any objections? [11:24] <MoeKraft> Emma: None from me. [11:24] <MoeKraft> Frank: No objections [11:24] <MoeKraft> No objections from me [11:25] <MoeKraft> Emma: Make sure your styling is adhering to Markdown rules [11:25] <MoeKraft> Emma: A subtle line between sections would be nice [11:26] <MoeKraft> Emma: Also underline links [11:26] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Ok, I have merged pull request [11:26] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Next meeting will be during workshop [11:28] <MoeKraft> Wilco: We are having a 2 day workshop to continue working on these rules. [11:28] <MoeKraft> Wilco: 2 days in afternoons they will be online [11:28] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Annika sent out a reminder last week [11:28] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Also, info on auto-wcag website [11:29] <MoeKraft> Wilco: challenge folks to review rules and create GitHub issues [11:29] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Frank are you good on the video work? [11:29] <MoeKraft> Frank: yes [11:29] <MoeKraft> Wilco: I am working on a couple of new rules we will look at during the workshop [11:29] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Anyone ready to start working on a new rule by yourself? [11:30] <MoeKraft> Emma: don't mind getting started but don't know WCAG well enough but might help me learn WCAG and better understand the differences [11:30] <cpandhi> I can take a stab [11:31] <MoeKraft> Wilco: cool [11:31] <cpandhi> sounds good [11:31] <MoeKraft> Wilco: Will set up call with Emma and Charu [11:31] <MoeKraft> Wilco: I like this stuff [11:31] <MoeKraft> Emma: Feels more proactive [11:32] <MoeKraft> MaryJo: Final thoughts, would like to get into helping with rules, Initially will help review [11:32] <MoeKraft> Moe: ditto [11:33] <cpandhi> def find time to review and try to contribute [11:33] <cpandhi> with new new rules [11:33] <cpandhi> great start [11:34] <MoeKraft> Frank: Thanks to everyone been very fun. There's no requirement to distinguish links to those who cannot perceive by color if they are not perceivable by those who can distinguish color, F73 [11:34] <MoeKraft> rrsagent, generate minutes [11:35] == maryjom [~chatzilla@public.cloak] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 38.8.0/20160420141331]"] [11:35] == cpandhi [~chatzilla@public.cloak] has quit ["ChatZilla 0.9.92 [Firefox 45.1.1/20160502160818]"] [11:35] <emmaPR-BBC> Thanks [11:36] == Frank [~Frank@public.cloak] has quit ["Page closed"] [11:36] == emmaPR-BBC [~emmaPR-BBC@public.cloak] has quit ["Page closed"] [11:36] <MoeKraft> rrsagent, generate minutes From: Frank Berker <fb@ftb-esv.de> To: "public-auto-wcag@w3.org" <public-auto-wcag@w3.org> Date: 05/30/2016 07:27 AM Subject: Agenda for 9 July 2016 Auto-WCAG rule development call Hi everyone, as you may have heard, we set up an additional call focusing on rule design. And you may also have heard, that the rules went to GitHub. The repo is at https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag. To contribute to the rules, you have to use pull-requests on that repo. The documentation for doing that can be found here: https://help.github.com/articles/using-pull-requests/ The call will be monthly and we will start on Thursday, the 9th of July at 14:00 UTC - http://timeanddate.com/s/307b Please note: We have switched back to Skype. To join the meeting, notify us on our IRC channel and I will add you to the Skype call. The IRC channel is: irc://irc.w3.org:6665/#auto-wcag If you do not have an IRC client you can use: http://irc.w3.org Agenda ------ 1) Action Items: https://www.w3.org/community/auto-wcag/wiki/Action_items 2) Review SC1-4-1-a: https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/issues/3 3) Review SC2-4-2-titles-across-pages: https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/issues/4 4) Review SC3-2-3-navigational-links-across-pages: https://github.com/auto-wcag/auto-wcag/issues/5 5) General: Discussion on review workflow 6) General: Discussion on rules format (templates, links, algorithms) 7) Final thoughts Kind regards Frank -- Frank Berker fb@ftb-esv.de http://ftb-esv.de FTB - Forschungsinstitut Technologie und Behinderung Grundschötteler Strasse 40, 58300 Wetter Telefon: 02335/9681-34 Telefax: 02335/9681-19
Received on Thursday, 9 June 2016 15:46:25 UTC