Re: Questioning the current direction of the Web Audio API

I'm a bit late for the party here, but... I'm sure no one is surprised that
I *very very* much agree with Sebastien here. In fact I had probably been
in the working group for just a few weeks before starting to complain about
the (to me) completely backwards way of building this API. In my book the
Web Audio API has become yet another warning example in the wall of shame
for The Extensible Web Manifesto <http://extensiblewebmanifesto.org/>,
where what people needed was the minimum viable product, i.e. easy way to
write sound, any sound, to the users' speakers, and they needed it direly.
Instead they got more than two years of waiting (depending on how you count
of course, you could say that the Webkit implementation more shortly, but
you could also say that we haven't reached v1 yet) just to get a monolithic
framework that's hard to extend to their needs.

I've given the API my fair share of shots, trying to use it for both games
and music, for cases where in theory the basic building blocks provided by
the API should be enough (with a few hacks like looped "noise"), for
example jet engine simulation as well as woodwind simulation. Every time
eventually I've had to give up due to some limitation in the *framework* (such
as circular routing not being possible without a 128 sample delay in the
loop) or the some of the *nodes* themselves. Then, given the current
limitations of the ScriptProcessorNode, if I implemented just the missing
parts with ScriptProcessorNodes, I would end up being in a worse place in
terms of performance than if I had gone with just doing everything in a
single ScriptProcessorNode, due to reasons already mentioned by Sebastien.

We were also hitting the same issues at ofmlabs. In fact, in the
discussions I've had with my colleagues even outside ofmlabs, anyone who
has been in longer term contact with the API shares the frustration (or
maybe they're just nice to me when I'm ranting :).

All this said, I'm sure most, if not all, of us here more or less see the
issues now and I'm glad we're moving to first fix the gaping awful holes in
the API for v1, and for v2 move on to what we should have started with:
making the ScriptProcessorNode not just an escape hatch or a complement to
the native nodes, but the core of the API on which to build on. Now, I know
that hindsight is easy, but if we had started with just the
ScriptProcessorNode two years ago and started getting developers to build
around it, then optimize and build on the patterns they form, we wouldn't
(despite the hard work of our editors) still have a massive backlog of ugly
issues like shared memory and other things that prevent implementation in
JS or similar languages.

My most sincere hope is something good has come out of all this in the form
of us learning to stay away from prematurely optimized kitchen sink APIs
and start with the basics in the future.

All the best,
Jussi


On Sat, Oct 19, 2013 at 8:14 PM, s p <sebpiq@gmail.com> wrote:

> > To the extent that it is a problem today, it's partly because
> present-day implementations are running the JS in these nodes in the main
> thread.
>
> Let's suppose ScriptProcessorNode is optimized and runs in the audio
> thread? (Therefore minimizing IPC). And let's suppose 2 benchmarks, which
> for me summarize the important questions.
>
> 1)
> Test1.1 is N ScriptProcessorNodes, each of them running an algorithm A.
> Test1.2 is one ScriptProcessorNode running N times the algorithm A.
>
> 2)
> You have a really big graph. Test2.1 connects together native AudioNodes
> and/or ScriptProcessorNodes. Test2.2 implements the exact same dsp graph as
> a highly optimized dsp function using asm.js, running in a single
> ScriptProcessorNode.
>
> In 1) do you think it is possible to bring the execution time of Test1
> close to the execution time of Test2 by improving ScriptProcessorNode?
> In 2) do you think the Test2.1 will always be faster than Test2.2?
>
> In fact ... the Test2 could already be done! I should try ...
>
>
>
> 2013/10/19 Joseph Berkovitz <joe@noteflight.com>
>
>>
>> On Oct 19, 2013, at 12:02 PM, s p <sebpiq@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>
>> And no matter if there is more nodes in the futures, there is just no way
>> all the basic building blocks for all the algorithms humans can ever
>> conceive can be provided as AudioNodes (and that sucks. Because on
>> basically every other plateform, there is no limitation).
>>
>>
>> Of course AudioNodes can't be provided for everything. That is why
>> extensibility is important, and ScriptProcessorNode is at present the
>> vehicle for doing so.
>>
>> Second, if you understand that professionals need things that can't be
>> built with basic AudioNodes, you understand that ScriptProcessorNode will
>> be more than just an escape valve.
>>
>>
>> "Escape valve" was an understatement on my part. I completely agree that
>> ScriptProcessorNode is essential to any professional, wide-ranging use of
>> the API.
>>
>> Now the big problem with that is : you will need to instantiate multiple
>> ScriptProcessorNodes in your graph, connect them with native AudioNodes,
>> and because of the sum of the overheads of using ScriptProcessorNodes, you
>> will end-up in a situation where it is actually more performant to just put
>> the whole dsp function into ONE single ScriptProcessorNode, re-implementing
>> oscillators, convolutions, and the whole thing ... making native AudioNodes
>> useless. That's what I mean by "this architecture is impossible to extend".
>>
>>
>> I don't think your analysis is correct about ScriptProcessorNodes *for
>> all time*. To the extent that it is a problem today, it's partly because
>> present-day implementations are running the JS in these nodes in the main
>> thread. This can impose inter-thread communication overhead that is highly
>> implementation-dependent. To address this issue does not (to my mind) mean
>> changing the entire direction of the Web Audio API. It means the overhead
>> of ScriptProcessorNodes -- or whatever succeeds them in later API versions
>> -- must be minimized through various means.
>>
>> The WG has received similar feedback regarding ScriptProcessorNodes from
>> other parties as well including internal W3C reviewers. These reviewers
>> have not concluded that AudioNodes are "useless"; rather, they have
>> requested that Web Audio address its present shortcomings and made some
>> positive proposals on how to do so.
>>
>>         .            .       .    .  . ...Joe
>>
>> *Joe Berkovitz*
>> President
>>
>> *Noteflight LLC*
>> Boston, Mass.
>> phone: +1 978 314 6271
>>        www.noteflight.com
>> "Your music, everywhere"
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> *S├ębastien Piquemal
> *
> *
> ** *-----* @sebpiq*
>  -----* *http://github.com/sebpiq*
> *
>  ----- http://funktion.fm
>

Received on Sunday, 20 October 2013 17:06:07 UTC