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Re: APA & TT Joint Telecon Minutes; 28 February

From: Pierre-Anthony Lemieux <pal@sandflow.com>
Date: Fri, 30 Mar 2018 08:19:38 -0700
Message-ID: <CAF_7JxDs8=ZPw5xZ7ALYZps5FvsrP42CbGjhtd5sdJmcumkYOw@mail.gmail.com>
To: W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures <public-apa@w3.org>
Cc: TTWG <public-tt@w3.org>
Hi all,

FYI. Per our February 28 call and having seen not further discussions,
I plan to merge the following two pull requests:

https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/339
https://github.com/w3c/imsc/pull/326

and close the following issues:

https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/321
https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/320
https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/319
https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/318
https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/317
https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/316
https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/315

on Tuesday COB.

Best,

- Pierre

On Wed, Feb 28, 2018 at 10:18 AM, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net> wrote:
> Colleagues:
>
> Minutes from the joint teleconference with APA and TimedText of 28 February
> are provided below as text. They're available as hypertext at:
>
> https://www.w3.org/2018/02/28-apa-minutes.html
>
> Our thanks to the timeText folks for a very helpful and productive conversation!
>
> Janina
>
> <Begin Minutes>
>
>    W3C
>
>                                                            - DRAFT -
>
>                                  Accessible Platform Architectures Working Group Teleconference
>
> 28 Feb 2018
>
> Attendees
>
>    Present
>           janina, Joanmarie_Diggs, JF, pal, IanPouncey, Nigel, Becka11y, MichaelC, marisa_demeglio
>
>    Regrets
>           Leonie, Gottfried, david_singer
>
>    Chair
>           janina
>
>    Scribe
>           jasonjgw
>
> Contents
>
>      * Topics
>          1. Agenda Overview; Introductions go around
>          2. APA Captioning Comments -- Discussion with TTML and WebVTT
>          3. Styling Concerns
>      * Summary of Action Items
>      * Summary of Resolutions
>      __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
>    present_
>
>    <janina> scribe: jasonjgw
>
> Agenda Overview; Introductions go around
>
>    Janina: the main agendum is to discuss issues presented to TTML and WebVTT, and attempt to move closer to resolution
>    than has been achieved via e-mail.
>    ... beyond that conversation, the usual agenda apply.
>
>    Nigel: notes that he chairs the TTML work and that WebVTT is separate. Nigel notes issues with timing requirements for
>    captions/subtitles.
>
>    <janina> We can add Styling below the Captioning issue as a topic
>
>    Styling issues with captions and CSS.
>
>    JF: there are cofnlicting user needs and conflicting understandings of what we need and the optimal user experience.
>    ... he is concerned that there be nothing in the caption-related specs that prevents users from resizing/presenting the
>    caption differently according to their needs.
>
>    Janina: would like to continue collecting topics before entering into the details. Styling issues have been identified.
>
>    Participants introduce themselves.
>
> APA Captioning Comments -- Discussion with TTML and WebVTT
>
>    <JF> examploe here: http://john.foliot.ca/demos/captions.png
>
>    Janina proposes that APA concerns could be easily addressed. Normative changes don't appear to be necessary and an
>    explanatory note (clarifying that the author's supplied presentation of captions isn't set in stone) may be sufficient.
>
>    <JF> in practice here: https://www.3playmedia.com/solutions/features/integrations/brightcove-integration/
>
>    Janina: anyone who needs significant magnification of captions is likely to ahve a strategy for dealing with the
>    consequences of doing so.
>    ... there are important, but marginal, use cases: user needs supersede default authoring decisions - the author
>    proposes, the user disposes. Most consumers will receive what the author has created, but there are edge cases. JF has
>    offered an example of a tool demonstrating such cases.
>
>    Nigel: TTML allows the author to define presentaton of captions, but it is open to implementations to present captions
>    otherwise than as the author has requested. He notes that users can enlarge the entire video or present it on a larger
>    display.
>
>    <JF> https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/media-a11y-reqs/
>
>    JF: He notes the concern that captions could completely obscure the content in the viewport. Media Accessibility User
>    Requirements discussions envisage possible reliance on a second screen that presents the video in parallel with the
>    primary display, but with the captions enlarged. He argues that preserving visibility of video content in the viewport
>    isn't a critical requirement.
>
>    <JF> http://john.foliot.ca/demos/captions.png
>
>    <JF> https://www.3playmedia.com/solutions/features/integrations/brightcove-integration/
>
>    JF: refers to a caption increased to 400%, achievable (with other modifications) by adjusting options in the video
>    player.
>
>    WebVTT and TTML should not specify anything that frustrates these user adjustments.
>
>    Janina proposes an accessibility impact statement that could note the issues.
>
>    Nigel notes that the user needs to be able to obtain equivalents of both the audio track and the video track in order
>    to understand the program content.
>
>    For example, the user needs to be able to see that there's something important in the video while reading captions.
>
>    <JF> clarification around the 2/3 viewport: I have been told this anecdotally
>
>    pal: there's nothing in the TTML spec that prevents the viewing system from transforming the video itself or the
>    caption text.
>
>    Presentation systems can display teh timed text on a separate device, increase the size, etc. It isn't clear that any
>    changes are needed.
>
>    Andreas: it's a question of responsibility - of where the customization task should be handled. There is no layer to
>    negotiate subtitle customizations.
>
>    Typically the customizations are performed by the application.
>
>    JF: part of the cdore concern is wehre the customization happens and who/what is responsible. While agreeing with Nigel
>    that the video and audio complement each other to comprise the entire presentation, there are users who need to access
>    it in ways that don't respect this totality (e.g., viewing the video more than once).
>
>    He reiterates the question of who's responsible for customizations and how they will occur.
>
>    Janina: doesn't notice any substantive disagreement - timed text specialist appear to acknowledge the principle that
>    users may need to customize the timed text to ensure it's usable by them.
>
>    Janina would expect users requiring significant enlargement to have strategies for working with it (additional
>    monitors, large displays, etc.).
>
>    Janina: perhaps we need to focus on the particular language in the TTML spec which may appear to be inconsistent with
>    this principle (of users being able to adjust the presentation as needed for accessibility purposes).
>
>    Janina suggests focusing on this specific language and that an accessibility impact statement may be appropriate.
>
>    Responding to a question, John states that he can't find any specific language in the specification, and that the
>    concern arises from comments received in response to the horizontal review. He wishes it to be clarified that the use
>    cases under consideration are matters that we want to support.
>
>    JF: notes that technologies often arise for review by APA without sufficient documentation of their intent.
>    ... suggests we need clarification that nothing prevents, for example, increasing caption size to 400%.
>
>    <JF> @Pierre: https://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/media-a11y-reqs/
>
>    : Establishing authoring guidelines for various territories and\/or languages is outside the core of the format spec,
>    while being valuable to application implementors.
>
>    Nigel: notes difficulties that arise with changing captions over time if not all of the text is simultaneously visible
>    due to extreme enlargement.
>
>    He notes that timed text is different from an HTML page that can be scrolled.
>
>    Unbounded zooming results in the user's missing out on content.
>
>    Michael: there's a challenge in that although the spec may not prevent zooming, the UA developers might not think to
>    support it. We need user agent implementation guidance.
>    ... agrees with Nigel taht there's a level of magnification that becomes infeasible for the user, and hence we tend to
>    require it to be supported up to a specified level (400%, for example).
>
>    JF: no WCAG requirement to support zooming of captions. He agrees that authoring guidance is important.
>    ... MAUR provides some guidance that can be drawn upon.
>
>    Michael: WCAG didn't require support for caption enlargement as this wasn't supported by user agents when the WCAG 2.0
>    Recommendation was published. In the present context we anticipate future requirements.
>
>    Responding to a question about whether MAUR has been found consistent with regulatory requirements (e.g., related to
>    captions), JF notes the expertise of caption and media-related developers who contributed to the process. It hasn't
>    been checked for consistency with regulatory requirements; it reflects user requirements as identified by the W3C.
>
>    <pal> https://www.w3.org/TR/media-accessibility-reqs/
>
>    JF agrees with the proposition that an informative note citing this MAUR document would improve the caption-related
>    specifications.
>
>    <pal> https://github.com/w3c/imsc/issues/316
>
>    There's discussion of identifying the GitHub issue to which proposing a link to the MAUR document would resolve.
>
>    JF suggests it should be #316.
>
>    Summarizing, Janina suggests that a response proposing a non-normative note citing the MAUR would address the issues
>    raised.
>
> Styling Concerns
>
>    <nigel> https://www.w3.org/wiki/TimedText/CSSRequirements
>
>    Nigel: work has been done to identify which styling features important to captions are supported in CSS.
>    ... there are some desired features that are difficult to map to CSS.
>
>    Nigel suggests taht more work needs to be done to develop specific proposals to address these issues.
>
>    <pal> Below are some of the issues filed against CSS:
>
>    <pal> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1975
>
>    <pal> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1974
>
>    <pal> https://github.com/w3c/csswg-drafts/issues/1973
>
>    Ian: from the CSS accessibility Task Force point of view, we should identify wehther the issues pertain to
>    accessibility.
>
>    <nigel> https://w3c.github.io/ttml2/index.html#style-attribute-derivation
>
>    He favours technology-agnostic requriements with technology-specific techniques, and there may be use cases on the
>    accessibility side for some of the desired styling features for captions (with CSS as the technology for which
>    techniques are needed).
>
>    Nigel notes the work documented on the wiki.
>
>    Nigel notes that examples were presented to the CSS WG.
>
>    Janina: we've made good progress. There appears to be a way forward arising from the meeting. Minutes will be posted to
>    both working groups if this is acceptable.
>
>    Janina notes likely future topics to be jointly taken up.
>
>    There's an invitation for TTML WG participants who may be interested to join the CSS accessibility task force.
>
>    Janina will establish whether the conclusions reached at the meeting sufficiently address the open GitHub issues.
>
>    <pal> See slides 8-11 at https://drive.google.com/open?id=0B_OQLEGiaO-RamRTam5Edkc1cXc
>
> Summary of Action Items
>
> Summary of Resolutions
>
>    [End of minutes]
>      __________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
>
> Present: janina Joanmarie_Diggs JF pal IanPouncey Nigel Becka11y MichaelC marisa_demeglio
> Regrets: Leonie Gottfried david_singer
> Found Scribe: jasonjgw
> Found Date: 28 Feb 2018
>
>
> --
>
> Janina Sajka
>
> Linux Foundation Fellow
> Executive Chair, Accessibility Workgroup:       http://a11y.org
>
> The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
> Chair, Accessible Platform Architectures        http://www.w3.org/wai/apa
>
>
Received on Friday, 30 March 2018 15:20:27 UTC

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