W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-apa@w3.org > February 2016

RE: grids vs sortable tables

From: Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 08:46:00 -0500
Matt,

I assumed the table sortable attribute and the th sorted attributes were
passed on to AT.  I assumed that when a sorted state was announced, the
user would know that you could sort on that column - using the mouse or
enter key. I didn't know the HTML attributes were going away.

Deque's sortable table example uses role of grid and aria-sort on the th
elements aria-sort='none' when it is sortable but not sorted by that
column.  I would suggest making an W3C example for sortable tables since
the current HTML spec can cause confusion between grids and tables.

                                                              
     Regards,                                                 
                                                              
    Fred Esch                                                 
 Watson, IBM, W3C                                             
  Accessibility                                               
                                                              
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management and Quality       
                                                              






From:	Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>
To:	Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, "'Steve Faulkner'"
            <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Cc:	"'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'"
            <public-aria@w3.org>, "'W3C WAI Accessible Platform
            Architectures'" <public-apa@w3.org>
Date:	02/01/2016 02:49 PM
Subject:	RE: grids vs sortable tables



Fred,

Is it necessary to have a property on the table to tell the user that a
particular TH inside that table contains an interactive element for sorting
that column?

Matt

From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Monday, February 1, 2016 9:57 AM
To: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Cc: Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group
<public-aria@w3.org>; W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures
<public-apa@w3.org>
Subject: Re: grids vs sortable tables



Steve,

There are sortable tables being used in the wild, for example angularJS's
ng-table. How are developers supposed to tell AT users that a table is
sortable and a column can be sorted if the sortable and sorted properties
are removed?

Sortable tables are important for accessibility as they are often used as
an accessible alternative to charts. Even when you can make a chart
accessible, when you a huge number of data rows - you want a better way for
an AT user to find the max/min values than walking all the data members.
For instance, providing a sortable table will be more usable than having an
accessible bar chart and forcing an AT user to walk 200 bars to find the
top five bars. Personally, if I had to get the top five values from a huge
bar chart I would prefer a sortable table as well.



                                                     
     Regards,                                        
                                                     
    Fred Esch                                        
 Watson, IBM, W3C                                    
  Accessibility                                      
                                                     
 IBM Watson       Watson Release Management and      
                  Quality                            
                                                     






Inactive hide details for Steve Faulkner ---01/29/2016 04:58:04 PM---On 29
January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com> Steve Faulkner
---01/29/2016 04:58:04 PM---On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch <
fesch@us.ibm.com> wrote: > A table element can have a *'sort

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
Cc: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>, Accessible Rich Internet
Applications Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
Date: 01/29/2016 04:58 PM
Subject: Re: grids vs sortable tables





On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com> wrote:
      A table element can have a 'sortable' attribute which designates you
      can sort on columns.


note the table sorting algorithm and associated attribute have been removed
from the whatwg HTML spec due to a lack of implementer interest and suggest
the same fate will befall this feature in W3C HTML, sooner rather than
later.

--

Regards

SteveF
Current Standards Work @W3C

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<html><body><p>Matt,<br><br>I assumed the table sortable attribute and the th sorted attributes were passed on to AT.  I assumed that when a sorted state was announced, the user would know that you could sort on that column - using the mouse or enter key. I didn't know the HTML attributes were going away. <br><br><a href="https://dequeuniversity.com/library/aria/tables/sf-sortable-grid">Deque's sortable table example</a> uses role of grid and aria-sort on the th elements aria-sort='none' when it is sortable but not sorted by that column.  I would suggest making an W3C example for sortable tables since the current HTML spec can cause confusion between grids and tables.<br><br><br>
<table border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td width="473" colspan="2" valign="middle"><div align="center"><font size="4" face="Verdana">Regards, <br><br>Fred Esch <br>Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility</font></div></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="130" valign="middle"><img src="cid:1__=0ABBF5DEDFDA5DE68f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="163" height="23" alt="IBM Watson" align="bottom"></td><td width="342" valign="middle"><font size="4" face="Verdana">Watson Release Management and Quality </font></td></tr></table><br><br><img width="16" height="16" src="cid:2__=0ABBF5DEDFDA5DE68f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" border="0" alt="Inactive hide details for Matt King ---02/01/2016 02:49:12 PM---Fred,"><font color="#424282">Matt King ---02/01/2016 02:49:12 PM---Fred,</font><br><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">From:        </font><font size="2">Matt King &lt;a11ythinker@gmail.com&gt;</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">To:        </font><font size="2">Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, &quot;'Steve Faulkner'&quot; &lt;faulkner.steve@gmail.com&gt;</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Cc:        </font><font size="2">&quot;'Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group'&quot; &lt;public-aria@w3.org&gt;, &quot;'W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures'&quot; &lt;public-apa@w3.org&gt;</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Date:        </font><font size="2">02/01/2016 02:49 PM</font><br><font size="2" color="#5F5F5F">Subject:        </font><font size="2">RE: grids vs sortable tables</font><br><hr width="100%" size="2" align="left" noshade style="color:#8091A5; "><br><br><br><font color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">Fred,</font><br><font color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"> </font><br><font color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">Is it necessary to have a property on the table to tell the user that a particular TH inside that table contains an interactive element for sorting that column?</font><br><a name="_MailEndCompose"></a><font color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"> </font><br><font color="#1F497D" face="Calibri">Matt</font><br><font color="#1F497D" face="Calibri"> </font><br><b><font face="Calibri">From:</font></b><font face="Calibri"> Fred Esch [</font><font face="Calibri"><a href="mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com">mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com</a></font><font face="Calibri">] </font><b><font face="Calibri"><br>Sent:</font></b><font face="Calibri"> Monday, February 1, 2016 9:57 AM</font><b><font face="Calibri"><br>To:</font></b><font face="Calibri"> Steve Faulkner &lt;faulkner.steve@gmail.com&gt;</font><b><font face="Calibri"><br>Cc:</font></b><font face="Calibri"> Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group &lt;public-aria@w3.org&gt;; W3C WAI Accessible Platform Architectures &lt;public-apa@w3.org&gt;</font><b><font face="Calibri"><br>Subject:</font></b><font face="Calibri"> Re: grids vs sortable tables</font><br><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"> </font><p><font size="4" face="Times New Roman">Steve,<br><br>There are sortable tables being used in the wild, for example angularJS's ng-table. How are developers supposed to tell AT users that a table is sortable and a column can be sorted if the sortable and sorted properties are removed? <br><br>Sortable tables are important for accessibility as they are often used as an accessible alternative to charts. Even when you can make a chart accessible, when you a huge number of data rows - you want a better way for an AT user to find the max/min values than walking all the data members. For instance, providing a sortable table will be more usable than having an accessible bar chart and forcing an AT user to walk 200 bars to find the top five bars. Personally, if I had to get the top five values from a huge bar chart I would prefer a sortable table as well. <br></font><p><table class="MsoNormalTable" border="0" cellspacing="0" cellpadding="0"><tr valign="top"><td width="404" colspan="2" valign="middle"><div align="center"><font size="5" face="Verdana">Regards, <br><br>Fred Esch <br>Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility</font></div></td></tr>
<tr valign="top"><td width="130" valign="middle"><img src="cid:1__=0ABBF5DEDFDA5DE68f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="163" height="23" alt="IBM Watson" align="bottom"></td><td width="274" valign="middle"><font size="5" face="Verdana">Watson Release Management and Quality </font></td></tr></table><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br><br></font><img src="cid:2__=0ABBF5DEDFDA5DE68f9e8a93df938690918c0AB@" width="16" height="16" alt="Inactive hide details for Steve Faulkner ---01/29/2016 04:58:04 PM---On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch &lt;fesch@us.ibm.com&gt; "><font size="4" color="#424282" face="Times New Roman">Steve Faulkner ---01/29/2016 04:58:04 PM---On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch &lt;</font><a href="mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com"><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">fesch@us.ibm.com</font></u></a><font size="4" color="#424282" face="Times New Roman">&gt; wrote: &gt; A table element can have a *'sort</font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br></font><font color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>From: </font><font face="Times New Roman">Steve Faulkner &lt;</font><a href="mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">faulkner.steve@gmail.com</font></u></a><font face="Times New Roman">&gt;</font><font color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>To: </font><font face="Times New Roman">Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS</font><font color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Cc: </font><font face="Times New Roman">Matt King &lt;</font><a href="mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">a11ythinker@gmail.com</font></u></a><font face="Times New Roman">&gt;, Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group &lt;</font><a href="mailto:public-aria@w3.org"><u><font color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">public-aria@w3.org</font></u></a><font face="Times New Roman">&gt;</font><font color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Date: </font><font face="Times New Roman">01/29/2016 04:58 PM</font><font color="#5F5F5F" face="Times New Roman"><br>Subject: </font><font face="Times New Roman">Re: grids vs sortable tables</font><br><hr width="100%" size="2" align="left" noshade><br><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br><br><br></font><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><br>On 29 January 2016 at 20:07, Fred Esch &lt;</font><a href="mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com" target="_blank"><u><font size="5" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">fesch@us.ibm.com</font></u></a><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">&gt; wrote:</font><ul><ul><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">A table element can have a </font><i><font size="5" face="Times New Roman">'sortable'</font></i><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"> attribute which designates you can sort on columns.</font></ul></ul><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><br><br>note the table sorting algorithm and associated attribute have been removed from the whatwg HTML spec due to a lack of implementer interest and suggest the same fate will befall this feature in W3C HTML, sooner rather than later.</font><font size="4" face="Times New Roman"><br></font><font size="5" face="Times New Roman"><br>--<br><br>Regards<br><br>SteveF</font><u><font size="4" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman"><br></font></u><a href="http://www.paciellogroup.com/blog/2015/03/current-standards-work-at-w3c/" target="_blank"><u><font size="5" color="#0000FF" face="Times New Roman">Current Standards Work @W3C</font></u></a><br><BR>
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Received on Tuesday, 2 February 2016 13:48:31 UTC

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