Meeting minutes 2016-03-18

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Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Lead
mobile: +31-641044153



              Web Annotation Working Group Teleconference

18 Mar 2016

   See also: [2]IRC log



          Ivan Herman, Rob Sanderson (azaroth), Tim Cole, Doug
          Schepers (shepazu), Ben De Meester, Takeshi Kanai, Dan
          Whaley, Nick Stenning

          Davis Salisbury, Paolo Ciccarese, Benjamin Young,
          Frederick Hirsch, Randall Leeds

          Rob_Sanderson, Tim_Cole



     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]1. Scribe selection, Agenda review, Announcements?
         2. [5]Minutes approval
         3. [6]Issue CFC for publication of Model, Vocab and
         4. [7]Testing
     * [8]Summary of Action Items
     * [9]Summary of Resolutions

1. Scribe selection, Agenda review, Announcements?

   azaroth: also talk (quickly) about CFC
   ... if no large outstanding issues, let's issue a CFC within
   one week
   ... any announcements?

   timcole: meeting next week?

   <TimCole> I will be present

   <dwhly> I will be

   I can be present

   <takeshi> I will be present

   TimCole: is there any specific topic to work on?

   azaroth: testing would be the big one

   TimCole: I'm happy to host a meeting about that next week
   ... how about I'll do an e-mail about that call?

   azaroth: perfec
   ... t

Minutes approval

   <azaroth> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are


   RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved:


Issue CFC for publication of Model, Vocab and Protocol

   azaroth: we would like to have a CFC to publish the docs
   ... especially vocab needs more text, and diagrams to be done
   ... but to get feedback about the technicalities, more
   visibility would be good
   ... we can do a one-week CFC via email
   ... any concerns about that?
   ... any issues that need to be addressed before? except for
   ivan's comments

   timcole: we don't have a vocab doc on W3C yet, I think

   ivan: that was an index mistake, I changed that

   <ivan> [12]


   <ivan> [13]


   <ivan> [14]


   ivan: (these are the urls used for the CFC)
   ... these dates are close to this date
   ... these three documents would become the next versions of the
   /TR WD's

   timcole: draft should be updated quickly

   ivan: it's very timely that we have these things published

   azaroth: we don't have a shortname for the vocab yet

   ivan: we need to have that
   ... in the CFC, best, we propose the shortname as well
   ... the final resolution e-mail should also have that shortname

   azaroth: is annotation-vocab ok?

   <TimCole> +1

   <nickstenn__> +1

   azaroth: seems consistent with the other shortnames

   <ivan> +1


   ivan: on timing: the restriction I have, is that I am around
   the week of the 28th of March, the week after that, I am away
   for two consecutive weeks
   ... I propose we try to get this published on Thursday the 31st

   <azaroth> +1 to 2016-03-31

   ivan: the editor should prepare by going through all checkers
   (i.e., link checkers)
   ... so there won't be any last-minute editorial problems

   azaroth: I did it before and I'll do it again
   ... the model and protocol doc point to the vocab spec, but
   there is not publication yet

   ivan: you can have a local bibliography in respec
   ... the local bibliography should include all three documents
   ... I'll send you an example

   azaroth: by the time we get through CR, we don't need a local

   ivan: I think these version should always be dated URIs, I
   ... it always puts the date of the publication there, but that
   would be wrong..
   ... we have to update that until the REC version

   azaroth: ok
   ... any other thoughts?


   azaroth: last week, we talked about what we could ask the
   clients and servers to conform to
   ... i.e., core model vs support support for different types of

   shepazu: so the profiles-thing?

   azaroth: yes, also syntactic vs semantic vs UI testing
   ... also about the tools to test with
   ... and about the W3C rules about what needs to be tested

   shepazu: usually testing depends on conformance

   ivan: question is: for the three things (vocab, model,
   protocol): what do we want to test?
   ... profiles etc. is separate
   ... how was the LDP protocol tested?

   azaroth: LDP had a test-kit that you could download and test
   against your implementation
   ... it would do the various methods
   ... and generate a report

   ivan: so a separate program (client-side) that tested the

   azaroth: yes, rather than a module incorporated into the server
   ... I can ask our developer that used it about his experience

   ivan: for the protocol, that seems reasonable to me

   shepazu: Chris and I talked about testing the model
   ... a validator would not be sufficient
   ... simply saying 'this incarnation validates to the model' is
   not enough, that's testing some content
   ... we talked about creating a test page, i.e., the target of
   the annotation
   ... the annotation client does the steps to create an
   annotation (manual or automatic)
   ... that annotation is sent to a toy annotation server
   ... downloaded again into the client, and validated there, to
   check whether the structure fits with the model
   ... that would be 1) reusable, and 2) actually test the client,
   not only validate

   timcole: that makes a lot sense
   ... but it conflates the testing of the protocol and the model

   shepazu: it doesn't matter how the annotation is published to
   the website, it does matter that it is published
   ... e.g., in CSS, they make a baseline
   ... if the client could simply give the annotation to the other
   client-side code, that would also work, but would violate the
   principle that the client would be inaccessible to other

   <azaroth> (LDP Implementation Report:
   /ldp.html )


   timcole: do we need something like: how does a server react to
   the protocol: a report
   ... for the client: can it create and take correct annotation
   and use them
   ... so, can the client also recognize incorrect annotations?

   <azaroth> And the test suite:


   timcole: I'm worried not having a method specified for checking
   the generated annotations
   ... the process of sending it somewhere could miss errors

   ivan: two things:
   ... first: not all implementations that we may want to test are
   such that you can set up a web page that easily
   ... if the goal is to annotate data on the web, then I don't
   see what the web page is
   ... I wouldn't restrict to only web page based implementations
   ... second: let's say we have that, the annotation system
   produces the relevant structure, and we have to test whether
   the structure is right, or makes mistakes
   ... what we did for RDFa, is that something happens, and
   produce a clear structure
   ... for each of the tasks, we have the pattern that must be
   ... and an automatic procedure that could compare results
   ... that requires that the annotation system can dump the
   structure into an external file
   ... if we can't do automatic testing, we give the annotation
   system some tasks, and the outputted structure we compare those
   with what we expect that should happen
   ... I don't know whether we can do that automatically

   shepazu: manual testing is more time-consuming, and doesn't
   work well within our testing framework, but it might be
   ... i.e., the W3C testing framework

   <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to ask Dan about AAK as potential

   ivan: that's not for all types of working groups

   azaroth: Dan: about the AAK as potential audience: what would
   be valuable, as testing implementations?

   dwhly: it's a little premature for now
   ... coalition is currently group of publishers, not software
   ... I think that's most useful for the upcoming F2F: what are
   the use cases for annotation, and how do those use cases
   articulate in an interoperable annotation layer?
   ... the technical people can triage the use cases to see what
   works with waht the W3C is doing, and what not

   shepazu: in similar situations, W3C sees that validators are
   useful if other people want to use W3C annotation stuff
   ... seeing that they are doing the output correctly
   ... a validator would be a necessary component
   ... if other people want to use the Web Annotation model

   timcole: So, single page won't be enough: shouldn't we identify
   a set of annotation tests
   ... and seeing whether a client can generate a file which can
   be validated and checked for errors
   ... I would like to see whether we can identify all test cases
   that are in the model

   shepazu: each test would have his own page, and that test would
   also contain the passing criteria

   timcole: is it feasible, given that we have different kinds of
   objects and different kinds of implements, and some
   implementations would only pass a part of the annotation tests

   shepazu: that's about different conformance classes
   ... if your annotation client would only work with, e.g., image
   objects, we test that client only for the relevant test cases
   ... W3C doesn't actually test implementations, it tests the
   implementability of the specifications
   ... i.e., this feature of this spec was implemented
   interoperably by two or more user agents
   ... if that feature does not have two passing implementations,
   it is marked at risk and possibly removed
   ... until we have two passing implementations, or we move the
   spec forward without that feature

   timcole: I expect not to find two implementations that
   implement all features

   shepazu: you don't need that, it could be some kind of
   combination of different clients

   timcole: good, my first question was: can we find all test

   ivan: [about CSV working group]: each test had a scenario, data
   ... implementation had to produce something (JSON, metadata,
   ... each of these tests were run separately
   ... each implementation had to validate itself and return the
   results in some accepted format
   ... about 350 different use cases
   ... to cover the various features
   ... if we have a structure like that, we need a certain number
   of scenarios

   <Zakim> azaroth, you wanted to +1 tasks on sample resources

   azaroth: I also like the idea of setting up a series of defined
   ... and possibly downloaded, tested, and uploaded again, or
   done online if possible
   ... question is that we would a group of people to implement
   the testing framework

   nickstenn: what would the tests for the model look like?
   ... actually, this means processing annotation data like
   clients would do it in the real world?
   ... but the model is about the semantics of the model, not
   about implementations

   <azaroth> +1 to not testing UA behavior on consumption of an

   nickstenn: how could we possibly create a testing framework
   that would work for all user agents?
   ... I think about giving a set of annotations, and asking to
   implementers: can you client interpret it correctly?

   timcole: the thing is that someone somewhere could implement a
   tool that could generate, e.g., a selector
   ... secondly, could our testing framework distinguish between
   correct and incorrect usage of a feature
   ... can a tool recognize the difference between a correct and
   an incorrect annotation?

   ivan: let's say we set up an HTML page
   ... and describe in human terms: this is the annotation the
   user is supposed to do: select and comment
   ... the implementer would have to perform this task, and
   internally, you would have to build up the annotation via the
   annotation model
   ... and the implementation needs to dump the model in, e.g., a
   JSON file
   ... then, the implementation shows that the model can describe
   that action
   ... the other direction is that we provide annotation
   structures, and see whether these annotation structures can be
   understood by implementations
   ... it would be interesting to understand how current
   annotation clients are tested

   nickstenn: hypothesis tests on a granular level

   ivan: this is a question for other implementers as well
   ... we need a feeling of what is realistic

   azaroth: we only test syntax, not semantics
   ... we don't test the interaction
   ... if there are any comments about testing: put it on the
   mailing list
   ... and continue next week

   <nickstenn__> sounds good to me

   azaroth: adjourn

   <azaroth> Thanks to bjdmeest for scribing! :)

   <ivan> trackbot, end telcon

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

    1. [17]Minutes of the previous call are approved:

   [End of minutes]

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [18]scribe.perl version
    1.143 ([19]CVS log)
    $Date: 2016/03/18 16:20:26 $


Received on Friday, 18 March 2016 16:23:53 UTC