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Meeting minutes, 2016-04-08

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 11 Apr 2016 05:55:08 -0400
Message-Id: <F0D46D0D-BA10-4B9D-9A6E-FF70EAA883FD@w3.org>
To: W3C Public Annotation List <public-annotation@w3.org>
Minutes are here:

https://www.w3.org/2016/04/08-annotation-minutes.html <https://www.w3.org/2016/04/08-annotation-minutes.html>

Text version below

Ivan Herman, W3C
Digital Publishing Lead
Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
mobile: +31-641044153
ORCID ID: http://orcid.org/0000-0003-0782-2704


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

                      Web Annotation Working Group

08 Apr 2016


      [2] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2016Apr/0012.html

   See also: [3]IRC log

      [3] http://www.w3.org/2016/04/08-annotation-irc


          TB Dinesh, Doug Schepers (shepazu), Shane McCarron
          (ShaneM), Tim Cole, Nick Stenning, Frederick Hirsch,
          Benjamin Young (bigbluehat), Paolo Ciccarese, Dan Whaley
          (dwhly), Sarven Capadisli (csarven)

          Rob Sanderson, Davis Salisbury, Ivan Herman, Ben De
          Meester, Takeshi Kanai


          Nick Stenning, Dan Whaley


     * [4]Topics
         1. [5]Announcements?
         2. [6]Minutes Review
         3. [7]HTML Serialization
         4. [8]Testing
     * [9]Summary of Action Items
     * [10]Summary of Resolutions

   <TimCole> Agenda:

     [11] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-annotation/2016Apr/0012.html

   <TimCole> Scribenick: nickstenn


   dwhly: Two things. 1) We are firming up the schedule for I
   Annotate and are about to announce the accepted presentations
   today. About 32 different applications.
   ... going to have a set of full presentations and some flash
   ... also planning a 90 minute session on abuse and "consent to
   be annotated"
   ... asking for suggestions of panelists or facilitators
   ... either familiar suspects or others likely to be in Europe

   shepazu: I don't know anyone in Europe, but probably can think
   of a few people. Will ask and get back to you.
   ... two ideas ... whoever wrote "The Internet is Garbage", and
   whoever wrote "Reading the Comments"

   shepazu: [Sarah Jeong and Joseph M. Reagle Jr. respectively]

Minutes Review

   <TimCole> PROPOSED RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are

     [12] https://www.w3.org/2016/04/01-annotation-minutes.html

   RESOLUTION: Minutes of the previous call are approved:

     [13] https://www.w3.org/2016/04/01-annotation-minutes.html

   TimCole: two main topics for today

   TimCole: HTML serialization and then later
   ... a discussion about testing

HTML Serialization

   <TimCole> [14]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/147

     [14] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/147

   TimCole: what is the thinking of how to serialize annotations
   in HTML
   ... would a non-normative note from the WG be appropriate?

   <bigbluehat> do we have a measure of how RDFa may/would be
   considered insufficient?

   TimCole: I looked at a couple of simple use cases where one
   wants to add into HTML some links, footnotes, etc.
   ... another suggestion (from the JSON-LD spec) is to include
   the JSON-LD in a script tag
   ... also microdata or RDFa
   ... but RDFa requires you use the namespaces (and full property
   names) from the vocabulary

   <bigbluehat> JSON-LD in script tags is also what Google /
   Schema.org recommend for adding "Inbox Actions" to email fwiw

   TimCole: whereas in JSON-LD some of this complexity is hidden
   by the JSON-LD context
   ... if someone knows a way around this for RDFa that would be
   interesting to know

   <shepazu> bigbluehat, got a reference URL?


     [15] https://developers.google.com/gmail/markup/actions/actions-overview

   <bigbluehat> this was in reference to using JSON-LD in script
   tags in HTML

   TimCole: schema.org uses the same URI for namespace and JSON-LD
   ... no keys are renamed

   <bigbluehat> here's a more exemplary page

     [16] https://developers.google.com/gmail/markup/getting-started#your_first_markup

   shepazu: Before the WG I experimented with using RDFa to map
   the data model into HTML
   ... my experience was not only was it difficult to do
   ... had to chat with several experts on how to do it (who
   disagreed with one another)
   ... my experience is that it it's very difficult for the
   average person to use RDFa
   ... includes adding a lot of extra markup

   <PaoloCiccarese> One example:

     [17] https://www.w3.org/community/openannotation/wiki/RDFa

   <bigbluehat> an older experiment of mine on RDFa+HTML for

     [18] http://bl.ocks.org/BigBlueHat/3068c1e0cb459c048e76

   shepazu: using RDFa per se seems like it might be prohibitively

   <csarven> nickstenn Hypothetical :)

   <csarven> and q

   shepazu: one way to look at this is that the markup for
   annotations could be similar to the markup for comments and
   ... if we wanted to get the most utility of something, we might
   want to consider a more general case than just annotations
   ... and that might get more interest from browser vendors


     [19] http://schepers.cc/annotations/note-element/note-element.html

   shepazu: a quick demo using web components to create a custom
   note element in HTML

   <ShaneM> I think W3C calls that "custom elements" now ?

   shepazu: purely a tech demo
   ... if we really want to solve a problem for an HTML
   serialization, my opinion is that we should be looking to solve
   a more general problem than just annotation in HTML, with as
   few new attributes as possible
   ... if, say, we added a single <note> element to HTML

   <csarven> I think I missed the relevance or a need of a new
   element? What's the UC exactly?

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to ask who we are in this case?

   ShaneM: On the subject of RDFa as a mechanism for annotating...
   I'm an RDFa champion...

   ShaneM: DPUB folks have been working with accessibility folks
   for a while and have some prior work on note and note-ref [?]
   ... we have not yet considered how to inform the annotation
   environment of note elements

   <shepazu> (Shane, you and I have talked about this in the past,
   BTW :) )

   <Zakim> bigbluehat, you wanted to ask what the goal of HTML
   serialization is specifically

   bigbluehat: I'd like us to scope what specifically the goals
   for an HTML serialisation are
   ... what are we trying to provide? merely upgrades for comments
   at the bottom of a post
   ... or are we aiming for in-context display of the content
   ... what sort of things do we expect to gain from it being
   serialized in HTML
   ... as opposed to what is technically possible now

   TimCole: any thoughts on answers to these questions?

   bigbluehat: aim to help the existing "low-end" annotations
   (e.g. footnotes, comments) ... give them a path to "upgrade" to
   something more meaningful
   ... giving them more data and meaning within the HTML
   ... as far as in-context display goes, the JSON-LD seems the
   most direct route
   ... otherwise we are going to have to reproduce all kinds of
   (e.g. selector) data in the HTML serialisation

   <ShaneM> +1 to understanding what problem we are trying to

   <csarven> eg Footnote annotation:
   [20]http://csarven.ca/dokieli#596975 displayed as an aside.
   Similar mechanism for references, and other social
   interactions. See also:
   nt-207419065 for a general purpose annotation UC.

     [20] http://csarven.ca/dokieli#596975
     [21] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/147#issuecomment-207419065

   bigbluehat: but the important thing is to identify *what* we're
   aiming to achieve beyond representing model data in HTML

   csarven: I agree with bigbluehat on identifying the usecases
   more clearly -- not yet entirely clear

   <tbdinesh> (agree with benjamin.. xpaths change with RDFa

   csarven: my question is: what is the need for coming up with
   new elements/attributes from the HTML side of things?

   <bigbluehat> ShaneM: could you drop a link to the DPUB
   conversation around a note element (rashly assuming it has a
   URL ;) )

   csarven: if the goal is to have annotations semantically
   represented, then that points towards RDFa
   ... would it be worth distinguishing between the need for new
   HTML elements and the full serialisation of the model as
   JSON-LD or RDFa in HTML?

   <ShaneM> RDFa has the advantage of being a W3C recommendation
   that is already part of HTML5.

   shepazu: along the lines of what bigbluehat was saying ... good
   next steps would be for us to spend some time identifying the
   outcomes we want [from the HTML serialisation work]
   ... but also thinking about this work as part of a larger set
   of things: footnotes, comment, etc.
   ... and then perhaps rather than publishing a note in this
   group, it might be best if we gave the feedback from that
   process back to the Digital Publishing Interest Group
   ... and that might help shift some of this work over to them
   where it could find a longer-term home

   TimCole: it seems there's enough confusion on different
   motivations supporting this topic that we're probably not going
   to converge on solutions, but we might converge on identified

   <bigbluehat> +1 to TimCole's summary

   shepazu: how do we want to structure the work in this WG?

   TimCole: spend a couple of week collecting new use cases?

   <csarven> Sounds good.

   TimCole: solicit more input on goals/use cases through GitHub
   and the mailing list
   ... any objections?
   ... [crickets]


   <TimCole> Scribenick: dwhly

   <TimCole> [22]https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/203

     [22] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/issues/203

   TimCole:In this issue Ivan mentions a table of selectors by
   media type that he's made, as well as raising some related
   questions. I think it's possible to get to the raw table but
   the github.io link does not resolve.


     [23] https://github.com/w3c/web-annotation/blob/media-selectors/model/medias.html

   TimCole: Progress on Testing during last couple of calls around
   ... For example, there are some questions raised in the issue
   above ^
   ... What is mime media type for a binary data file?
   ... How do features in the data model relate to media types?
   ... Can anyone get us going on this?

   TimCole: In trying to figure out what are testing requirements
   are, is it something that the client implements, annotation
   repository, or another ecosystem service?
   ... How do the tests break down by the class of agent?

   Shepazu: I don't think we should break down by the class of
   agent, comes later.
   ... Focus on the testing first.

   TimCole: So first, go back through the documents identify
   testable features.

   Shepazu: Yeah, first we do testable assertions, then we write
   ... Looking through the spec, I don't think it's spelled out
   different conformance clauses for different agents.
   ... Same testing methodology should apply to all agents.
   ... Unless it affects which tests we write, we shouldn't care
   what is being annotated.

   <ShaneM> I note this page does not work now:
   [24]https://www.w3.org/annotation/ because the embedded image
   uses a protocol and it is http:

     [24] https://www.w3.org/annotation/

   <Zakim> ShaneM, you wanted to talk about picking out testable

   ShaneM: I agree w/ doug.
   ... Identifying the testable statements is good. In parallel,
   we should do a little infrastructure work, because most of the
   testing you care about, can be easily automated if you have the
   infrastructure in place.
   ... Then we take testable statements, crafting tests.
   ... in terms of identifying conformance clauses, it's not a
   critical steps, but there are definitely different types of
   testiable agents.
   ... What matters is that there are multiple implementations for
   each feature. Thats how you know you've finished.

   TimCole: A lot of us on this group don't have proper
   ... Is there any training that would be helpful?

   ShaneM: There is

   <ShaneM> [25]https://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/

     [25] https://www.w3.org/TR/test-methodology/

   ShaneM: A nice note from the W3C ^
   ... Consumable by everyman.
   ... Gives techniques for testable assertions.
   ... In our spec there are lots of places where it says an
   implementation must do this, etc. Those are all test.
   ... The musts, mays, shoulds here are teh testable assertions.
   ... Determine if its reasonable. Did we mean that? #2 Is it
   ... Part of the review can be giving comments back, at the end
   we'll have a list of testable assertions.
   ... If we don't have enough, people will push back.

   Shepazu: Corallary, not only do we have tests, but we also need
   to have implementations.

   ShaneM: And if you don't then those features need to be carved
   ... or we create "fake" implementations.

   TimCole: Sounds like a multi-person endeavor.
   ... Task force time?
   ... Doug, how do we get this going?

   <ShaneM> by fake I mean implementations that exercise features
   even if the implemenations are not commercial (open source
   sample or reference implementations).

   shepazu: I think we should assign someone.
   ... they can start and assign actions.
   ... and drive the process.
   ... then we can track results, etc.

   TimCole: Yep. Do we have anyone that's willing to kick it off?
   ... Someone could perhaps offer some testable assertions?

   Shepazu: Shane you and I could discuss off list.

   <nickstenn> I'm also happy to contribute to that process

   ShaneM: That sounds good.

   TimCole: So Shane, Doug and nick will identify a few testable
   ... and will put these in GitHub in a way that others can help
   identify more testable features.
   ... In an upcoming call we can highlight and get some actions
   ... Do you guys need a week, two, more?

   ShaneM: Lets prime the pump.

   TimCole: Would be nice to enter the F2F w/ progress.

   Shepazu: It's nice to find test. assertions. But if you know
   the methodology, it gets easier.

   TimCole: Any more questions around testing?

   Any other things folks want to raise?

   scribe: Pls post examples of HTML serialization
   ... How far would we like to go in a note?
   ... Pls think about it.
   ... We will revisit in 2 weeks
   ... Annnnd..... we're done!

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

    1. [26]Minutes of the previous call are approved:

   [End of minutes]

    Minutes formatted by David Booth's [27]scribe.perl version
    1.144 ([28]CVS log)
    $Date: 2016/04/11 09:49:44 $

     [27] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
     [28] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Received on Monday, 11 April 2016 09:55:20 UTC

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