Re: Proposal Towards Universal HTTP/3, with a polyfill of QUIC for TCP (Fwd: New Version Notification for draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams-00.txt)

Hello Kazuho,

The goals of draft-kazuho-quic-quic-on-streams appear to be very similar
to draft-ietf-webtrans-http2, although the latter takes a different
approach (it redefines all of the QUIC frames it needs manually rather than
modifying existing QUIC frames).  It would be nice if we had a single
answer to the "I want to run QUIC over TCP" problem.

Cheers,
  Victor.

On Fri, Feb 16, 2024 at 3:25 AM Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hello QUIC and HTTP enthusiasts,
>
> We, Lucas and I, have submitted two drafts aimed at broadening the reach
> of HTTP/3 - yes, making it available over TCP as well. We are eager to hear
> your thoughts on these:
>
> QUIC on Streams: A polyfill for operating QUIC on top of TCP.
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kazuho-quic-quic-on-streams
>
> HTTP/3 on Streams: How to run HTTP/3 unmodified over TCP, utilizing QUIC
> on Streams.
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams
>
> As the co-author of the two drafts, let me explain why we have submitted
> these.
>
> The rationale behind our proposal is the complexity of having two major
> HTTP versions (HTTP/2 and HTTP/3), both actively used and extended. This
> might not be the situation that we want to be in.
>
> HTTP/2 is showing its age. We discussed its challenges at the IETF 118
> side meeting in Prague.
>
> Despite these challenges, we are still trying to extend HTTP/2, as seen
> with WebTransport. WebTransport extends both HTTP/3 and HTTP/2, but it does
> so differently for each, due to the inherent differences between the HTTP
> versions.
>
> Why are we doing this?
>
> Because HTTP/3 works only on QUIC. Given that UDP is not as universally
> accessible as TCP, we find ourselves in a position where we need to
> maintain and extend not only HTTP/3 but also HTTP/2 as a backstop protocol.
>
> This effort comes with its costs, which we have been attempting to manage.
>
> However, if we could create a polyfill for QUIC that operates on top of
> TCP, and then use it to run HTTP/3 over TCP, do we still need to invest in
> HTTP/2?
>
> Of course, HTTP/2 won’t disappear overnight.
>
> Yet, by making HTTP/3 more universally usable, we can at least stop
> extending HTTP/2.
>
> By focusing our new efforts solely on HTTP/3, we can conserve energy.
>
> By making HTTP/3 universally accessible, and by having new extensions
> solely to HTTP/3, we can expect a shift of traffic towards HTTP/3.
>
> This shift would reduce the necessity to modify our HTTP/2 stacks (we’d be
> less concerned about performance issues), and provide us with a better
> chance to phase out HTTP/2 sooner.
>
> Some might argue that implementing a polyfill of QUIC comes with its own
> set of costs. However, it is my understanding that many QUIC stacks already
> have the capability to read QUIC frames other than from QUIC packets,
> primarily for testing purposes. This suggests that the effort would be more
> about leveraging existing code paths rather than writing new code from
> scratch. Furthermore, a QUIC polyfill would extend its benefits beyond just
> HTTP, by aiding other application protocols that aim to be built on top of
> QUIC, providing them accessibility over TCP.
>
> Please let us know what you think. Best regards,
>
> ---------- Forwarded message ---------
> From: <internet-drafts@ietf.org>
> Date: 2024年2月16日(金) 17:15
> Subject: New Version Notification for
> draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams-00.txt
> To: Kazuho Oku <kazuhooku@gmail.com>, Lucas Pardue <lucas@lucaspardue.com>
>
>
> A new version of Internet-Draft
> draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams-00.txt
> has been successfully submitted by Kazuho Oku and posted to the
> IETF repository.
>
> Name:     draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams
> Revision: 00
> Title:    HTTP/3 on Streams
> Date:     2024-02-16
> Group:    Individual Submission
> Pages:    5
> URL:
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams-00.txt
> Status:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams/
> HTML:
> https://www.ietf.org/archive/id/draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams-00.html
> HTMLized:
> https://datatracker.ietf.org/doc/html/draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams
>
>
> Abstract:
>
>    This document specifies how to use HTTP/3 on top of bi-directional,
>    byte-oriented streams such as TLS over TCP.
>
> Discussion Venues
>
>    This note is to be removed before publishing as an RFC.
>
>    Discussion of this document takes place on the HTTP Working Group
>    mailing list (ietf-http-wg@w3.org), which is archived at
>    https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/ietf-http-wg/.
>
>    Source for this draft and an issue tracker can be found at
>    https://github.com/kazuho/draft-kazuho-httpbis-http3-on-streams.
>
>
>
> The IETF Secretariat
>
>
>
>
> --
> Kazuho Oku
>