W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > xmlschema-dev@w3.org > December 2005

Re: SV: SV: SV: SV: Schema help

From: <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>
Date: Fri, 2 Dec 2005 19:02:01 -0500
To: Bryan Rasmussen <brs@itst.dk>
Cc: "'Michael Kay'" <mike@saxonica.com>, "'petexmldev@tech-know-ware.com'" <petexmldev@tech-know-ware.com>, "'xmlschema-dev@w3.org'" <xmlschema-dev@w3.org>
Message-ID: <OF8CEF8FF3.85B32EAC-ON852570CB.008356D3-852570CC.00002FB1@lotus.com>
Should Schematron be seriously considered?  Absolutely.  It has many 
attractive qualities and seems to be doing well for at least some users. 
Is it such an obvious choice that we should rush it?  I don't think so. 
Picking up on just one point mentioned in this thread...

Bryan Rasmussen writes:

> Given that there is likely to be some argument in W3C as to how
> far such constraints should be implemented I doubt they will 
> come out as powerful as Schematron constraints

Probably true, but that doesn't necessarily make the Schematron approach 
the best.  I think we need to also consider Tim Berners-Lee's Principle of 
Least Power [1].  Since what Tim has written on this is just a few 
paragraphs, I'll quote them all here:

"In choosing computer languages, there are classes of program which range 
from the plainly descriptive (such as Dublin Core metadata, or the content 
of most databases, or HTML) though logical languages of limited power 
(such as access control lists, or conneg content negotiation) which 
include limited propositional logic, though declarative languages which 
verge on the Turing Complete (PDF) through those which are in fact Turing 
Complete though one is led not to use them that way (XSLT, SQL) to those 
which are unashamedly procedural (Java, C).
The choice of language is a common design choice. The low power end of the 
scale is typically simpler to design, implement and use, but the high 
power end of the scale has all the attraction of being an open-ended hook 
into which anything can be placed: a door to uses bounded only by the 
imagination of the programmer.
Computer Science in the 1960s to 80s spent a lot of effort making 
languages which were as powerful as possible. Nowadays we have to 
appreciate the reasons for picking not the most powerful solution but the 
least powerful. The reason for this is that the less powerful the 
language, the more you can do with the data stored in that language. If 
you write it in a simple declarative from, anyone can write a program to 
analyze it in many ways. The Semantic Web is an attempt, largely, to map 
large quantities of existing data onto a common language so that the data 
can be analyzed in ways never dreamed of by its creators. If, for example, 
a web page with weather data has RDF describing that data, a user can 
retrieve it as a table, perhaps average it, plot it, deduce things from it 
in combination with other information. At the other end of the scale is 
the weather information portrayed by the cunning Java applet. While this 
might allow a very cool user interface, it cannot be analyzed at all. The 
search engine finding the page will have no idea of what the data is or 
what it is about. This the only way to find out what a Java applet means 
is to set it running in front of a person.
I hope that is a good enough explanation of this principle. There are 
millions of examples of the choice. I chose HTML not to be a programming 
language because I wanted different programs to do different things with 
it: present it differently, extract tables of contents, index it, and so 
on."

I think we need to consider the choice of constraint mechanisms from this 
perspective too.  At least in principle, the ideal would be something just 
powerful enough, but no more.  I know that Schematron is sometimes 
implemented on top of XSLT, and full XSLT is much too powerful for me to 
be comfortable using it as part of validation.  I would like to study 
whether Schematron per se may be more appropriately limited, and I have 
not yet looked into it in detail.  Perhaps someone who knows Schematron 
better than I do can enlighten me?

Noah

[1] http://www.w3.org/DesignIssues/Principles.html#PLP

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn 
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------








Bryan Rasmussen <brs@itst.dk>
11/18/2005 03:31 AM
 
        To:     "'noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com'" 
<noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>
        cc:     "'petexmldev@tech-know-ware.com'" 
<petexmldev@tech-know-ware.com>, "'xmlschema-dev@w3.org'" 
<xmlschema-dev@w3.org>, "'Michael Kay'" <mike@saxonica.com>
        Subject:        SV: SV: SV: SV: Schema help



Well on the subject of co-occurence constraints I would just like to
reiterate what I said earlier, with some extension:

Given that there is likely to be some argument in W3C as to how far such
constraints should be implemented I doubt they will come out as powerful 
as
Schematron constraints, furthermore I have a hard time seeing this as
producing a syntax as nice as Schematron, therefore I would really like to
see something like:

1. XML Schema adopts Schematron as an extension language of some sort.
2. XML Schema puts some thought into how Schematron can be combined with 
XML
Schema to the benefit of both, beyond the normal  method of drop 
schematron
in appinfo. 

I have some ideas on #2, but I'm somewhat conflicted about them - what 
model
makes sense, syntax etc. so I don't really want to just blurt out with it.
I'd be more interested in hearing what kinds of things other people could
see connecting the two languages.

Cheers
Bryan Rasmussen

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com [mailto:noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com]
Sendt: 17. november 2005 18:51
Til: Bryan Rasmussen
Cc: 'Michael Kay'; 'petexmldev@tech-know-ware.com';
'xmlschema-dev@w3.org'
Emne: Re: SV: SV: SV: Schema help


Well, I think there are good reasons from time to time to revisit the 
effectiveness of the W3C process and the compromises embodied therein. I'm 

not convinced that a deep dive on that is the best use of this particular 
mailing list.   I happen to like the working groups I've been on that do 
their work in public (in my case, both the TAG and XMLP) and I'd be happy 
for schema to go the same way.  Then again, I really don't think that's a 
substitute for having people who have 30% of their time committed to 
working on a technology.  There's a lot of detail work and care required 
to revise a specification even if there's agreement on the general ideas. 
The discussions need to involve people who have the knowledge and the time 

commitment to work through interactions with existing features of the 
specification.  In the case of co-constraints, it would seem to me that 
there ought to be a careful look taken at the relationship between the 
existing key/keyref/unique constraint mechanisms and anything new that's 
proposed.  It would be nice to believe that we wouldn't just be sprouting 
new and uncoordinated ways of doing things every few years.

So, I personally welcome broader input, but what we're really short of are 

the people who can edit the specification text, draft prose, be 
responsible for the details, etc.  Of course, there are also lots of other 

messy issues to consider when you change the working mode of a group 
including anti-trust laws in various jurisdictions, IP issues, etc.  If 
people feel that they have ideas for how the W3C can do these things 
better, I think the right place to go would be to the W3C staff and/or the 

workgroup chairs.  I personally would not be against having the schema WG 
switch to using a public mailing list for its discussions.  I suspect that 

requires a recharter, but in principle I'm fine with it.  I don't think 
that will solve much of our resource problems.  We don't lack for people 
with good ideas, in email or in person.  We're missing the people to do 
the archticture and drafting work that goes into making all the details 
fit together.   It's hard to do that well without meeting F2F from time to 

time.

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn 
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------








Bryan Rasmussen <brs@itst.dk>
Sent by: xmlschema-dev-request@w3.org
11/17/2005 04:59 AM
 
        To:     "'Michael Kay'" <mike@saxonica.com>
        cc:     "'xmlschema-dev@w3.org'" <xmlschema-dev@w3.org>, 
"'petexmldev@tech-know-ware.com'" <petexmldev@tech-know-ware.com>, (bcc: 
Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM)
        Subject:        SV: SV: SV: Schema help



Damn, an earlier typo in the email address of Pete Cordell added in by me
was replicated in your email. Just on the off chance this thread goes any
further I thought I should correct it. I've cc'ed Pete on this mail. Sorry
for the problem.

Cheers,
Bryan Rasmussen

-----Oprindelig meddelelse-----
Fra: Michael Kay [mailto:mike@saxonica.com]
Sendt: 17. november 2005 10:47
Til: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com; Bryan Rasmussen
Cc: xmlschema-dev@w3.org; ',petexmldev@tech-know-ware.com'
Emne: RE: SV: SV: Schema help



> 1) Although most widely used schema validators are fairly 
> slow, one can in 
> fact implement the XML schema rules at quite high speed.  My team is 
> hoping to publish some work in that area in coming months, 
> and I suspect 
> that others in the industry are working in the same 
> direction.  I think 
> it's important to the success of any technology we choose 
> that it be able 
> to meet the performance needs of our customers.

I would resist this kind of thinking. SQL was successful because it put
functionality first, and left implementors to devise optimisation
strategies. Users need a constraint language that is capable of expressing
arbitrary constraints on the content of a document, and it should be left 
to
the implementor to work out which of these constraints can be evaluated in
streaming mode and which can't.

SQL today allows the full power of the query language to be used to 
express
integrity contraints, and users learn when they need to restrict their
ambitions to meet performance requirements. 90% of applications aren't
performance critical anyway.

There's no point telling users to go and use some other technology to do
their validation, the other technology isn't going to be fast either.

Michael Kay
Received on Saturday, 3 December 2005 00:02:15 GMT

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