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RE: What is a SOAP Message

From: David Orchard <dorchard@bea.com>
Date: Wed, 12 Feb 2003 14:00:02 -0800
To: <xml-dist-app@w3.org>
Message-ID: <002201c2d2e2$19385800$c10ba8c0@beasys.com>

Interesting.  I think we might have a disagreement about the scope of
representations.  I assert that in ALL cases of messages using the HTTP
binding, a representation is transferred.  Not just for the WebMethod
feature wrt SOAP.  In the case of a "non-RESTful" SOAP usage, such as the
classic getStockQuote inside a POST, there is still a representation being
transferred.  This is exactly similar to an HTML POST of a form, where a
representation of a form is transferred, and then a representation is
returned.  So REST isn't limited to just WebMethod IMO.

I further assert that whenever URIs are used, representations are
transferred.  HTTP is indeed designed to be extremely friendly to REST
transfers, but representation transfer isn't limited to HTTP.  For example,
ftp transfers lack the ability to add the representation and message
metadata that HTTP supports using HTTP headers.  But it is still a
representation transfer.

My point is that there is a distinction between transferring
Representations, and following the REST constraints.  I know that might seem
a little strange.  But the case of the HTML POST is what really cleared
things up for me.  The POST result isn't "on the web" because you can't
"GET" it, but so what?  It's still a web page, and representations are
transferred.  Just because the resource isn't "on the web", doesn't break
the idea that representations are transferred between resources.

Now I must admit I haven't thought through the notion of representations
over TCP or UDP.  I guess if they don't have URIs, then they wouldn't be
about representations....  I'll have to ponder that.  That might be an
interesting boundary condition.

Cheers,
Dave

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM
> [mailto:noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com]
> Sent: Wednesday, February 12, 2003 1:44 PM
> To: David Orchard
> Cc: 'Mark Baker'; xml-dist-app@w3.org
> Subject: RE: What is a SOAP Message
>
>
> I'm not so sure I see SOAP as being always REST and representations.
> Certainly we have gone a long way to make it possible to use
> SOAP in that
> manner, and I believe that such usage should be encouraged wherever
> practical.  Still, I believe that use of REST is optional, as
> is use of
> HTTP.  I think I'm correct in saying that the term
> "representation" is
> best used in the context of REST.
>
> Consider a binding of SOAP to some transport such as MQ series.  That
> binding may support the WebMethod feature, and hence
> operations such as
> GET and POST, but it need not.    I don't see anything in SOAP that
> requires all such uses to map to representations, or even to naming
> destinations with URIs (though that is encouraged with a SHOULD, as I
> recall...I'm disconnected at the moment and can't easily
> check the text.)
>
> SOAP can be used for many levels of messaging.  It could be used as a
> structured replacement for or enhancement to UDP, for
> example.  Of course,
> at some trivial level one can map every conceivable message
> to something
> like REST.  After all, maybe even an individual IP packet can
> be viewed as
> updating the state of some resource at its destination, but we don't
> conventionally view IP or UDP that way.
>
> So, I think that terms like "representation" are best used in the
> specific, admittedly common case where SOAP is used with a
> binding that
> supports the WebMethod feature, and hence REST semantics.   I
> don't see
> how every SOAP message is by definition carrying a representation of
> something.
>
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn                              Voice: 1-617-693-4036
> IBM Corporation                                Fax: 1-617-693-8676
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> ------------------------------------------------------------------
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> "David Orchard" <dorchard@bea.com>
> Sent by: xml-dist-app-request@w3.org
> 02/10/2003 01:11 PM
>
>
>         To:     "'Mark Baker'" <distobj@acm.org>
>         cc:     <xml-dist-app@w3.org>, (bcc: Noah
> Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM)
>         Subject:        RE: What is a SOAP Message
>
>
>
> I believe that your counter example is still a representation.  It's
> simply
> a representation of a request. Same way that form data
> encoded into a POST
> is a representation of the form.
>
> In my mind, the web is about exchanging messages.  In those
> messages are
> representations and message metadata - and that
> representations consist of
> representation data and metadata.  In typical web usage, the message
> metadata and representation metadata are HTTP Headers.
>
> Even RPC-style SOAP messages are representations (the
> allegedly "bad" SOAP
> POST examples).  Therefore there is a direct and easily describable
> relationship between SOAP and the Web.  Something like:
> - SOAP Messages are Web Messages, with content-type soap+xml
> and related
> processing model.  Separately, this is an additional
> constraint upon the
> web
> architecture.  Probably some motivation about what properties
> are achieved
> by this would be helpful in the ws-arch document.
> - SOAP Messages contain representations.  Where I get a
> little fuzzy is
> the
> relationship of the envelope to the representation.  It seems
> to me that a
> SOAP representation is an envelope + some stuff outside the envelope.
> Indeed the content-type defines more than just the envelope.
>
> The point being, the SOAP architecture fits very well into the web
> architecture, once one clearly defines the relationship between these
> terms.
>
> Cheers,
> Dave
>
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: xml-dist-app-request@w3.org
> > [mailto:xml-dist-app-request@w3.org]On
> > Behalf Of Mark Baker
> > Sent: Tuesday, February 04, 2003 8:39 PM
> > To: David Orchard
> > Cc: xml-dist-app@w3.org
> > Subject: Re: What is a SOAP Message
> >
> >
> >
> > +1 to Noah's last message, but I also wanted to respond to Dave's
> > questions ...
> >
> > On Tue, Feb 04, 2003 at 07:08:09PM -0800, David Orchard wrote:
> > > woah, that seems a bit extreme.
> > >
> > > Does that mean if I have a method in an HTML form - like
> > GetStockQuote :-) -
> > > that the HTML result isn't a representation as well?
> >
> > No, response messages of any kind are almost always representations,
> > independant of the form of request message.
> >
> > - getStockQuote("SUNW") returns a representation
> > - GET /foo returns a representation
> >
> > As an example of what it means to return a
> non-representation, imagine
> > sending a request, and getting a response that was really another
> > request that the protocol said you had to treat as a
> request, not just
> > opaque data.
> >
> > > So dereferencing URIs can result in representations and
> > non-representations?
> >
> > Just representations.
> >
> > MB
> > --
> > Mark Baker.   Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA.
http://www.markbaker.ca
> Web architecture consulting, technical reports, evaluation & analysis
>
Received on Wednesday, 12 February 2003 17:02:25 GMT

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