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FW: Draft Minutes 11 Sept 2003 WS Desc Telcon

From: Jonathan Marsh <jmarsh@microsoft.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Sep 2003 10:31:35 -0700
Message-ID: <DF1BAFBC28DF694A823C9A8400E71EA201294ABD@RED-MSG-30.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
To: <www-ws-desc@w3.org>

Minutes originally posted to http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/w3c-ws-desc/2003Sep/0024.html (converted to plain text).

Minutes of XML Protocol WG telcon, September 11, 2003 
Based on IRC log (no URL)

Attendence: 
 Erik Ackerman          Lexmark 
 David Booth            W3C 
 Allen Brookes          Rogue Wave Software 
 Roberto Chinnici       Sun Microsystems 
 Glen Daniels           Macromedia 
 Youenn Fablet          Canon 
 Dietmar Gaertner       Software AG 
 Steve Graham           Global Grid Forum 
 Tom Jordahl            Macromedia 
 Jacek Kopecky          Systinet 
 Sandeep Kumar          Cisco Systems 
 Philippe Le Hégaret    W3C 
 Amelia Lewis           TIBCO 
 Steve Lind             AT&T 
 Kevin Canyang Liu      SAP 
 Lily Liu               webMethods 
 Jonathan Marsh         Chair (Microsoft) 
 Jeff Mischkinsky       Oracle 
 Dale Moberg            Cyclone Commerce 
 Jean-Jacques Moreau    Canon 
 Bijan Parsia           University of Maryland MIND Lab 
 Arthur Ryman           IBM 
 Adi Sakala             IONA Technologies 
 Jeffrey Schlimmer      Microsoft 
 Igor Sedukhin          Computer Associates 
 William Vambenepe      Hewlett-Packard 
 Sanjiva Weerawarana    IBM 
 Prasad Yendluri        webMethods, Inc. 

Regrets: 
 Umit Yalcinalp         Oracle 

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1.  Assign scribe. 
Lucky minute taker for this week is: Dietmar Gaertner 

-------------------------------------------------------------------- 
2.  Approval of minutes: 
  - Sept 4th telcon [.1].  Belated regrets from Bijan. 
  [.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0018.html 

Minutes approved. 

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3.  Review of Action items [.1]. 
RETIRED   2003-03-13: Don will write a proposal for annotating schema 
                      with part information. 
RETIRED   2003-05-13: DaveO to send a motivating example for R131. 
PENDING   2003-07-31: Philippe to make a proposal for fixing the 
                      HTTP binding. 
PENDING   2003-09-04: Phillipe to put the link to WSDL validator 
                      on the same place where other tools are listed. 
DONE [.2] 2003-09-04: Amy to propose a list of suggested replacement 
                      names for @name on the list. 
PENDING   2003-09-04: Jacek to review Appendix E in light of message 
                      removal. 
DONE [.3] 2003-09-04: Editors to add new issue "Should we define a 
                      new binding element for @soapActionURI?" 
[.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/desc/#actions 
[.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0010.html 
[.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0021.html 

New Action Items: 
2003-09-11: Sanjiva to take care about import/include extensibility
            (editorial) 
2003-09-11: Sanjiva to take care about REQUIRED AII explict (editorial) 
2003-09-11: Jeffrey to record redundant direction info as an issue 
2003-09-11: Philippe to write a response to Mark Baker proposing a property 
            solution and ask whether this satisfies his request 
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4.  Administrivia 
  a. Sept FTF logistics [.1]. Draft agenda due any time now! 
  [.1] http://www.w3.org/2002/ws/arch/3/07/f2fSeptLogistics.html 

Wednedsday all day meeting? 
Doubts whether the second half of Wednesday is productive 
There are no items yet for the joint meeting 
ACTION: Kevin to check whether there's a room available 
Strawpoll... 
Decision: go for half a day; no need for Kevin to organize a room 
for the afternoon. 

List of registrants: http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/34650/ws0309/results 

  b. Upcoming FTFs 
     - November 3-5, San Francisco (Fujitsu) 
     - January, Toronto or Boston 
     - March, March 1-2 or 4-5, Cannes-Mandelieu, France. 

... ongoing. 

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5.  Task Force Status. 
  a. Properties and Features (dormant) 
  b. Patterns 
  c. Attributes: note some negative positions [.1]. Please continue 
     discussion in preparation for FTF! 

Some Task Force discussion continues on our list 
Steve: Good discussion. Continue with Sanjiva's proposal

  d. QA & Testing 

  [.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0023.html 

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6.  New Issues.  Merged issues list [.1]. 
    - rename "operation" to "messages" or "message-group"? [.2, .3] 

Q: do we want to consider this, or do we dismiss it 
Somebody in favor? 
Tomj: I am firmly against renaming operation! 
Roberto_Chinnici: -1 
Sanjiva not for renaming; makes proposal on the mailing list 
JM: we are not going to record this as an issue

    - (ed?) import/include extensible? [.4] 

Sample available, but not normative. 
JM: example: include has an href - ask for username and password 
JM: Resolution: editorial 
ACTION: Sanjiva to take care about import/include extensibility (editorial)

    - (ed?) make REQUIRED AIIs explicit? [.4] 

ACTION: Sanjiva to take care about REQUIRED AII explict (editorial)

    - Redundant direction info in the model? [.5] 

...redundacy not bad 
Jeffsch in favor of keeping the direction info 
* jjm sanjiva: programming model? 
SW: direction is always redundant 
TJ: in/out makes it clear 
SW: pattern defines the semantics 
TJ: in favor for the WSDL containing the information that makes it clear what's going on 
DB: if e.g. firewall does not understnd the MEP URI do we want him to understand the direction info? 
JS: Firewall needs: do not want to understand a new protocol fully but certain parts 
JM: seems that this is an issue 
JM: somebody to make a proposal 
ACTION: record redundant direction info as an issue 
JS: It will be issue 87

  [.1] http://tinyurl.com/mwuy 
     (Note that [.1] redirects to 
      http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/issues/wsd-issues.html) 
  [.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0019.html 
  [.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0024.html 
  [.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0030.html 
  [.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0045.html 

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7.  Patterns.  New draft [.1] 
  - Issue 77: Is the "name" the correct [local name] for 
              interface/operation/input/@name? [.2] 
    Straw poll on summarized preferences from Amy [.3] 
    - messageName 
    - messageReference 
    - messageRef (Glen) 
    
  [.1] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/wsdl12/wsdl12-patterns.xml 
  [.2] http://tinyurl.com/mwuy#x77 
  [.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Sep/0038.html 

JM: finalize straw poll on name preferences 
JM: Any new thoughts? 
JK prefers messageReference or shorter version 
SW: MEPs define placeholder for messages 
SW: messageReference not a correct name 
.. Role does not seem to be appropriate either 
GD: SOAP has roles 
- role that a node takes 
- role of MEP 
it is more of a role that one of the parties plays 
discussion on precedence imposed (or not) by role? 
AL: does not agree that part 2 is ambiguous 
DM: Role thesaurus alternatives act, acting, appearance, aspect, banana, bit, character, 
clothing, execution, extra, face, guise, hero, heroine, ingenue, lead, look, part, 
performance, personification, piece, player, portrayal, presentation, representation, 
seeming, semblance, show, star, stint, super, title, walk-on 
JM: we do not have a lot of defenders for role 
DB: messageRole worth considering but puts the quote on role 
AL: propose to vote for ...Role or "other" 
JM: messageReference/messageRef as one option 
Option 1: MessageName, 2: MessageReference, 3: Role or other 
JM: "other" the other option 
DB: My vote: 2 (MessageReference) 
PlH: messageReference 
JeffM: target reference 
JM: is there a policy on abbreviations? 
AR remembers that at one time we had a policy to not abbreviate 
... discussion on whether there is or needs to be a general policy whether or not to 
use abbreviations... 
RC: href, idref, msgref 
JM: anybody who can't live with messageReference? 
...nobody raises his voice 
JM: Decision: messageReference for now 
JS: Issue 77 is closed. 
JM: keep option to change it later if it turns out that the length is a problem 

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8.  Binding enhancements.  New draft [.1, .2] 
  - Change @name from NCName to QName - not implemented? 
  [.1] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/wsdl12/wsdl12.xml#Binding 
  [.2] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/ws/desc/wsdl12/wsdl12.xml#Endpoint 

JS has this on his todo list 

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9.  Naming the service resource [.1, .2] 
  - Latest discussion [.3, .4] 
  [.1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jul/0008.html 
  [.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jul/0107.html 
  [.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jul/0145.html 
  [.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jul/0148.html 

...there was proposal in relation to target resource 
DB: spoke to Anne Thomas Manes about her concerns 
SW: there was an email thread and in the end she agreed to the poposal 
...discussion... 
JM: nothing to be done. Anne's request is satisfied 
JeffM: statements about the uniqueness of URIs 
JeffM: we have no facilities for determining the uniqueness 
JM: nobody can prevent me writing a WSDL with targetNamespace "oracle.com"... 
... but this is obviously not a good idea 
JM: there's a TAG discussion in favor of going away from fragment identifiers 

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10. Issue 64 [.1] Operations an HTTP verbs (Mark Baker) [.2, .3, .4] 
    Jacek's synthesis [.5] 
  [.1] http://tinyurl.com/mwuy#x64 
  [.2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003May/0094.html 
  [.3] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jan/0103.html 
  [.4] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jan/0111.html 
  [.5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-ws-desc/2003Jul/0095.html 

Long running issue on the agenda 
Issue raised by M. Baker 
Jack summarises: 
HTTP interface vs. WSDL interface 
Jack makes a proposal in his email on this thread 
JM: abstract set of ...operations that are mapped to the correcponding HTTP verbs? 
PlH: syntax not clear yet: we can imagine an attribute on the property 
JM: thoughts on adding this functionality? 
...discussion... 
JM: summary: retain some of the information that is contained in the HTTP verb 
JJM: understands that MB would like us to describe HTTP verbs as operations 
SW: this should/is part of the HTTP binding 
JK: likes Philippe's proposal 
SW: important point: we want to be able to bind RESTful interfaces to different protocols 
JM: what exactly does RESTful behaviour mean? 
JM: could we ask MB to develop a set of properties that make it RESTful? 
JS: wonders wether we need to care about the academic (but interesting) discussion 
about these properties 
JM: If we can show that our extensibility model is powerful enough 
MB could write the extension that fulfills his request... 
JK: agrees with MB that W3C Recs should fit well with the Web 
JK: at least commit ourselfes (by re-chartering) that we will work on this 
JS: doubts whether it is sufficent to achieve RESTfulness by annotation 
PlH: properties on teh abstract level may conflict with the binding 
JM: next step somebody to write a sample and get back to MB and explain how we believe 
that this satiesfies his request 
"... here's how you can use a property to annotate..." 
ACTION: Philippe to write a response to MB proposing a property solution and ask whether this 
satisfies his request 
End of call. 
Received on Wednesday, 17 September 2003 13:31:38 GMT

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