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RE: Can one inline schema import definitions from a second inline schema?

From: Martin Gudgin <mgudgin@microsoft.com>
Date: Mon, 20 Oct 2003 12:15:50 -0700
Message-ID: <DD35CC66F54D8248B6E04232892B6338203A54@RED-MSG-43.redmond.corp.microsoft.com>
To: "Umit Yalcinalp" <umit.yalcinalp@oracle.com>
Cc: "Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sanjiva@watson.ibm.com>, <www-ws-desc@w3.org>
Umit,
 
Yes, you're right. Except it's not us defining the visibility rules, but XML Schema. 
 
Gudge


________________________________

	From: Umit Yalcinalp [mailto:umit.yalcinalp@oracle.com] 
	Sent: 20 October 2003 20:14
	To: Martin Gudgin
	Cc: Sanjiva Weerawarana; www-ws-desc@w3.org
	Subject: Re: Can one inline schema import definitions from a second inline schema?
	
	


	Martin Gudgin wrote:
	

		We're not saying anything about the way other people's specs work, that IS the way schema works:
		
		A imports B imports C
		
		Constructs in C are not visible to A

	I guess what you are implying is that the way the Sample Apps xsd and wsdls are written today will need to be changed. The BP recommended pattern <wsdl:types><xsd:schema><xsd:import>.... is used by Sample Apps to incorporate the schemas. With the visibility rules as specified in our spec today, these will need to be rewritten as <wsdl:types><xs:import> to get the same visibility and to reuse the components. 
	
	
	

		
		Gudge 
		  

	--umit
	
	

		  

			-----Original Message-----
			From: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org 
			[mailto:www-ws-desc-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Sanjiva Weerawarana
			Sent: 20 October 2003 18:27
			To: www-ws-desc@w3.org
			Subject: Re: Can one inline schema import definitions from a 
			second inline schema?
			
			
			Obviously I didn't understand it then and I don't understand it now.
			Why do we say that imported components are not available to 
			WSDL? In general, why do we go saying things about other 
			people's specs??
			
			Also, isn't the replacement really
			    <xs:schema><xs:include .../></xs:schema> ?? But then what 
			do I know about schema.
			
			Sanjiva.
			
			----- Original Message -----
			From: "Martin Gudgin" <mgudgin@microsoft.com> <mailto:mgudgin@microsoft.com> 
			To: "Sanjiva Weerawarana" <sanjiva@watson.ibm.com> <mailto:sanjiva@watson.ibm.com> ; 
			<www-ws-desc@w3.org> <mailto:www-ws-desc@w3.org> 
			Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 11:15 PM
			Subject: RE: Can one inline schema import definitions from a 
			second inline schema?
			
			
			    

				Except that putting in <xs:schema><xs:import ... /> 
				      

			</xs:schema> DOES 
			    

				NOT
				      

			make the imported constructs visible to WSDL ( we had this 
			debate last year )
			    

				Gudge
				
				      

					-----Original Message-----
					From: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org
					[mailto:www-ws-desc-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of Sanjiva 
					        

			Weerawarana
			    

					Sent: 20 October 2003 18:11
					To: www-ws-desc@w3.org
					Subject: Re: Can one inline schema import definitions 
					        

			from a second 
			    

					inline schema?
					
					
					We can avoid all this subtelty if we just say <types> can contain 
					only one <xsd:schema>. I actually don't even like us allowing 
					<xsd:import> directly inside types - if you want that just put a 
					<xsd:schema> and an import inside it.
					
					Sanjiva.
					
					----- Original Message -----
					From: "Amelia A. Lewis" <alewis@tibco.com> <mailto:alewis@tibco.com> 
					To: <paul.downey@bt.com> <mailto:paul.downey@bt.com> 
					Cc: <mgudgin@microsoft.com> <mailto:mgudgin@microsoft.com> ; <umit.yalcinalp@oracle.com> <mailto:umit.yalcinalp@oracle.com> ; 
					<ryman@ca.ibm.com> <mailto:ryman@ca.ibm.com> ; <www-ws-desc@w3.org> <mailto:www-ws-desc@w3.org> 
					Sent: Monday, October 20, 2003 10:22 PM
					Subject: Re: Can one inline schema import definitions 
					        

			from a second 
			    

					inline schema?
					
					
					        

					Oops!
					
					That's an implication that I hadn't even thought of.  You're 
					absolutely right; WS-I prohibits references between
					          

					embedded schemas in this way.
					        

					I wonder if they knew that it had that effect?
					
					Amy!
					On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 16:57:55 +0100 paul.downey@bt.com wrote:
					
					          

					it could be my mistake, but i understand R2004:
					
					  <<[must not] import a Schema from any document whose
					            

					root element is
					        

					  not "schema" >>
					
					as prohibiting import of a namespace from one in-line schema 
					into another in-line schema, since the root element of a WSDL
					            

					document is
					        

					"definitions".
					
					As always, i'm prepared to be wrong .. in fact i'd like
					            

					to be wrong
					        

					here: i'm responsible for several .NET  generated WSDLs
					            

					that schema
					        

					import namespaces between multiple in-line schemas using
					            

					a missing
					        

					schemaLocation value.
					
					Paul
					
					[2004]
					
					            

					http://ws-i.org/Profiles/Basic/2003-08/BasicProfile-1.0a.htm#r
					        

				efinement34101
				      

					304
					        

					http://tinyurl.com/rary
					
					
					-----Original Message-----
					From: Amelia A. Lewis [mailto:alewis@tibco.com]
					Sent: 20 October 2003 15:54
					To: Downey,PS,Paul,XSJ67A C
					Cc: mgudgin@microsoft.com; umit.yalcinalp@oracle.com; 
					ryman@ca.ibm.com; www-ws-desc@w3.org
					Subject: Re: Can one inline schema import definitions
					            

					from a second
					        

					inline schema?
					
					
					I don't understand.
					
					WS-I prohibited use of wsdl:import to import schema, and 
					requires that xs:import be inside xs:schema inside wsdl:types
					            

					(bare xs:import
					        

					inside wsdl:types is allowed in wsdl.next).  It prohibits
					            

					use of any
					        

					schema language other than W3C XML Schema, and prohibits
					            

					import of
					        

					fragments (these from Anne Thomas Manes quotes of the
					            

					WS-I BP).  I
					        

					was not aware of a prohibition of imports of embedded
					            

					schema; could
					        

					you cite or quote this requirement?
					
					Amy!
					On Mon, 20 Oct 2003 08:42:41 +0100 paul.downey@bt.com wrote:
					
					            

					I'm not sure I understand how is WSDL 2.0 clearer in
					              

					this regard
					        

					than WSDL 1.1 ?
					
					My concern is unless the rules are absolutely clear 
					              

			on how to 
			    

					reference across in-line schemas, it will require profiling 
					out again in 2.0.
					
					I assume the WS-I prohibited importing an in-line
					              

					schema namespace
					        

					because the 1.1 rules were unclear, not because of 
					              

			some other 
			    

					interoperability issue ?
					
					Paul
					
					-----Original Message-----
					From: Martin Gudgin [mailto:mgudgin@microsoft.com]
					Sent: 19 October 2003 15:23
					To: Downey,PS,Paul,XSJ67A C; umit.yalcinalp@oracle.com; 
					ryman@ca.ibm.com Cc: www-ws-desc@w3.org
					Subject: RE: Can one inline schema import 
					              

			definitions from a 
			    

					second inline schema?
					
					
					The BP is defined over WSDL 1.1, and it's true that in WSDL 
					1.1 the schema processing rules are unclear.
					
					I think WSDL 2.0 is much clearer in this regard and see no 
					real reason to prohibit references across in-line schemas.
					
					Gudge
					
					              

					-----Original Message-----
					From: www-ws-desc-request@w3.org 
					[mailto:www-ws-desc-request@w3.org] On Behalf Of 
					paul.downey@bt.com Sent: 19 October 2003 08:57
					To: umit.yalcinalp@oracle.com; ryman@ca.ibm.com
					Cc: www-ws-desc@w3.org
					Subject: RE: Can one inline schema import 
					                

			definitions from a 
			    

					second inline schema?
					
					Ümit wrote:
					
					I would rather see inlined schemas to dissappear
					                

					altogether from
					        

					WSDL. Instead of discussing the semantics and the
					                

					interpretation
					        

					of inlined schemas within WSDL, the problem can 
					                

			be left to 
			    

					Schema completely.
					
					
					I've thus far found stand-alone WSDLs very useful, but if 
					the rules are unclear how to reference between in-line
					                

					schemas, and
					        

					the BP effectively prohibits it, then I agree: we should 
					consider removing inline schemas from WSDL.
					
					Paul
					
					
					
					
					                

					              

					--
					Amelia A. Lewis
					Architect, TIBCO/Extensibility, Inc.
					alewis@tibco.com
					
					            

					--
					Amelia A. Lewis
					Architect, TIBCO/Extensibility, Inc.
					alewis@tibco.com
					          

					
					        

			
			    

		
		
		  


	-- 
	Umit Yalcinalp                                  
	Consulting Member of Technical Staff
	ORACLE
	Phone: +1 650 607 6154                          
	Email: umit.yalcinalp@oracle.com
	
Received on Monday, 20 October 2003 15:16:18 GMT

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