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RE: Application Protocol Definition (was RE: Visibility (was Re: Intr oducing the Service Oriented Architec tural style ...

From: James M Snell <jasnell@us.ibm.com>
Date: Thu, 27 Feb 2003 14:29:38 -0800
To: "Assaf Arkin" <arkin@intalio.com>
Cc: "Burdett, David" <david.burdett@commerceone.com>, "Mark Baker" <distobj@acm.org>, www-ws-arch@w3.org, www-ws-arch-request@w3.org
Message-ID: <OF37556333.6E3667BB-ON88256CDA.007AEE94-88256CDA.007B905D@us.ibm.com>

> Would 'business protocol' be the best term to describe both 5 & 6?

I would think so, yes.

So the stack would then be:

1. Network Protocols
2. Communication Protocols
3. Messaging Protocols
4. Utility Protocols
5. Business Protocols

- James Snell
     IBM Emerging Technologies
     jasnell@us.ibm.com
     (559) 587-1233 (office)
     (700) 544-9035 (t/l)
     Programming Web Services With SOAP
         O'Reilly & Associates, ISBN 0596000952

     Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous. 
     Do not be terrified, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your 
     God will be with you whereever you go.    - Joshua 1:9

"Assaf Arkin" <arkin@intalio.com> wrote on 02/27/2003 02:09:24 PM:

> > Now that I consider it further, I'm not sure there is a real 
difference
> > between 5 & 6.

> Would 'business protocol' be the best term to describe both 5 & 6?

> arkin

> >
> > > Is HTTP a messaging protocol since you can use it on its own, or a
> > > communication protocol with WS-RM, ebXML, RN being messaging 
protocols
> > using
> > > that communicatio protocol?
> >
> > Bepends on how it is used. In REST style applications that use
> > HTTP, it is
> > clearly a messaging protocol.  In services that implement
> > WS-RM/ebXML/RN/etc and use HTTP, it is clearly a communications 
protocol.
> >
> > > arkin
> >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: James M Snell [mailto:jasnell@us.ibm.com]
> > > > Sent: Thursday, February 27, 2003 8:00 AM
> > > > To: Burdett, David
> > > > Cc: 'Assaf Arkin'; Burdett, David; Mark Baker; www-ws-arch@w3.org;
> > > > www-ws-arch-request@w3.org
> > > > Subject: Re: Application Protocol Definition (was RE: Visibility 
(was
> > > > Re: Intr oducing the Service Oriented Architec tural style ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Just my 2 cents thrown in from the spectator stands...
> > > >
> > > > I agree that "application protocol" is not the right term for the
> > > > collection of "slightly more specialized but still general
> > protocols".
> >  I
> > > > often refer to those as Utility Protocols rather than Application
> > > > Protocols which should focus on the abstract business operations 
and
> > data
> > > > needing to be exchanged.
> > > >
> > > > The order I would recommend is:
> > > >
> > > > 1. Network Protocols
> > > > 2. Communication Protocols
> > > > 3. Messaging Protocols
> > > > 4. Utility Protocols
> > > >      a. Business Transaction Protocols
> > > >      b. Discovery Protocol
> > > >      c. Negotiation Protocol
> > > >      .... <etc> ...
> > > > 5. Business Protocols
> > > > 6. Application Protocols
> > > >
> > > > - James Snell
> > > >      IBM Emerging Technologies
> > > >      jasnell@us.ibm.com
> > > >      (559) 587-1233 (office)
> > > >      (700) 544-9035 (t/l)
> > > >      Programming Web Services With SOAP
> > > >          O'Reilly & Associates, ISBN 0596000952
> > > >
> > > >      Have I not commanded you? Be strong and courageous.
> > > >      Do not be terrified, do not be discouraged, for the Lord your
> > > >      God will be with you whereever you go.    - Joshua 1:9
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > "Burdett, David" <david.burdett@commerceone.com>
> > > > Sent by: www-ws-arch-request@w3.org
> > > > 02/27/2003 03:33 AM
> > > >
> > > > To
> > > > "'Assaf Arkin'" <arkin@intalio.com>, Mark Baker <distobj@acm.org>,
> > > > "Burdett, David" <david.burdett@commerceone.com>
> > > > cc
> > > > www-ws-arch@w3.org
> > > > bcc
> > > >
> > > > Subject
> > > > Application Protocol Definition (was RE: Visibility (was Re: Intr
> > oducing
> > > > the Service Oriented Architec tural  style ...
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > Arkin
> > > >
> > > > You said ...
> > > >
> > > > >>> This of course doesn't help much, because we've just 
introduced
> > three
> > > > different protocols, one described by HTTP, one described by WSDL 
and
> > one
> > > > described by WSCI (just as an example). Again as with 
synch/asynch,
> > this
> > > > is all a matter of applying a definition in the proper context.<<<
> > > >
> > > > It might not help, but it is real life. You do have multiple 
protocols
> > > > operating in combination at different "layers", for example (not
> > > > sure this
> > > > list is complete or the names are right)
> > > >
> > > > 1. Network infrastructure protocols, e.g. TCP/IP
> > > > 2. Communication protocols, e.g. HTTP
> > > > 3. Messaging protocols, e.g. ebXML Messaging or WS-RM
> > > > 4. Business protocols, e.g. Order placement protocol that defines
> > > > sequence
> > > > of exchange of business documents
> > > >
> > > > You can also have other more slightly more specialized but still
> > general
> > > > "protocols", e.g.
> > > > 5. Two phase commit, e.g. Business Transaction Protocol
> > > > 6. Discover protocol, e.g To discover a WSDL or Schema definition
> > (REST
> > > > can work well here)
> > > > 7. Negotiation protocol, e.g. To negotiate which combination of
> > protocols
> > > > 1 through 4 to use in a specific instance
> > > >
> > > > ... we could probably go on ...
> > > >
> > > > The point is just calling some or all of these an "Application
> > Protocol"
> > > > is, IMHO, insufficiently precise.
> > > >
> > > > Do you think we should try and define these types of protocol and 
what
> > > > they mean in more detail?
> > > >
> > > > David
> > > >
> > > > -----Original Message-----
> > > > From: Assaf Arkin [mailto:arkin@intalio.com]
> > > > Sent: Wednesday, February 26, 2003 12:13 PM
> > > > To: Mark Baker; Burdett, David
> > > > Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
> > > > Subject: RE: Visibility (was Re: Introducing the Service Oriented
> > > > Architec tural style, and it's constraints and properties.
> > > >
> > > > > On Wed, Feb 26, 2003 at 03:18:48AM -0800, Burdett, David wrote:
> > > > > > <DB>We need to define what we mean by an "application" if
> > you mean
> > it
> > > > is
> > > > > > anything above the transport layer, then you are correct but
> > > > > really I think
> > > > > > the layers are typically: Operating System, App Server, "Web
> > Services
> > > > > > Middleware", Application.
> > > >
> > > > How about:
> > > >
> > > > Application - A program designed to assist in the performance of a
> > > > specific
> > > > task, such as word processing, accounting, or inventory management
> > > >
> > > > Now the only question is 'what application are we talking about?'
> > > >
> > > > Are we talking about the HTTP or FTP server? In this case HTTP
> > > > and FTP are
> > > >
> > > > the application protocols.
> > > >
> > > > Are we talking about accounting? In this case the accounting 
protocol
> > is
> > > > the
> > > > application protocol.
> > > >
> > > > Is it possible to have an application on top of an application on 
top
> > of
> > > > an
> > > > application? How about my accounting application running inside a 
WS
> > > > container (in itself an application) implemented inside an HTTP
> > > > server (in
> > > >
> > > > itself an application). Is that possible?
> > > >
> > > > This of course doesn't help much, because we've just introduced 
three
> > > > different protocols, one described by HTTP, one described by WSDL 
and
> > one
> > > > described by WSCI (just as an example). Again as with 
synch/asynch,
> > this
> > > > is
> > > > all a matter of applying a definition in the proper context.
> > > >
> > > > arkin
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > The *critical* thing that one has to accept in order to
> > > > understand REST,
> > > >
> > > > > is that application protocol methods are the same as operations 
in
> > an
> > > > > API, i.e. at the same layer of the stack as "getStockQuote" or
> > > > > "purchaseBook".  If you just take this as a given for a moment,
> > you'll
> > > > > see that all the arguments I've ever made on this subject become 
a
> > big,
> > > > > complex, yet entirely self-consistent description of much of Web
> > > > > architecture, and indeed several other Internet scale
> > architectures.
> >  If
> > > > > you don't accept it, then I probably come off as a loon, which I
> > > > > completely understand because I thought the same thing of some 
guys
> > who
> > > > > saying that to me back in 97/98 (Dan Connolly and Roy Fielding,
> > FWIW).
> > > > >
> > > > > So, a *rhetorical* question for those of you who don't believe 
that
> > > > > GET is at the same layer as getStockQuote; what would you call a
> > > > > protocol that does have a "getStockQuote" method?  Note;
> > "application
> > > > > protocol" is already taken. 8-)
> > > > >
> > > > > MB
> > > > > --
> > > > > Mark Baker.   Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA. http://www.markbaker.ca
> > > > > Web architecture consulting, technical reports, evaluation &
> > analysis
> > > >
Received on Thursday, 27 February 2003 17:30:28 GMT

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