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RE: REST, Conversations and Reliability

From: Burdett, David <david.burdett@commerceone.com>
Date: Wed, 17 Jul 2002 19:06:56 -0700
Message-ID: <C1E0143CD365A445A4417083BF6F42CC053D1005@C1plenaexm07.commerceone.com>
To: "'Paul Prescod'" <paul@prescod.net>, David Orchard <dorchard@bea.com>, www-ws-arch@w3.org

This work group seems to be degenerating into a REST vs SOAP debate ...
which is very, very sad ;(

Judging by the conviction of people such as Paul below I am sure that REST
can do all the things that SOAP can do. They might even do them better - I
don't really care.

We must remember that the IT industry is building on SOAP and WSDL as the
foundation for Web Services. If we ignore this and develop an architecture
that is based on REST then, in my opinion, this group runs the risk of
producing an architecture that will be, how can I say this, IGNORED.

This would be a fundamental waste of time and effort particularly since I
think SOAP can provide a perfectly good foundation.

Chris, as chair, is it possible for a vote to be taken to determine whether
we base our architecture on SOAP or base it on REST?



-----Original Message-----
From: Paul Prescod [mailto:paul@prescod.net]
Sent: Wednesday, July 17, 2002 5:33 PM
To: David Orchard; www-ws-arch@w3.org
Subject: REST, Conversations and Reliability

David offers the following URI:


In my mind, it is a perfect example of a protocol that can be enhanced
by applying some REST discipline.

The BEA proposal introduces a concept of "ConversationID" which
represents a conversation. It also introduces a state machine that
allows the participants to move through the stages from "no
conversation" to "talking" to "finished conversing". It defines ways
that headers are used to move through those stages. It also defines how
a callback URI can be presented. It has quite a resemblance to the ideas
in the HTTPEvents draft.

Now let me apply a combination of REST discipline and my own thoughts
about networking.

Let's call the recipient of the first message the "server" and the
sender of the first message the "client" although at an HTTP level they
may switch roles if the exchange is asynchronous.

The server needs to deal with N incoming conversations and needs to keep
them all straight. Also, the server by definition has the capability to
host URIs but the client may or may not. For this and other reasons, I
feel that the conversation ID should be generated by the recipient, not
the sender. Most important: the recipient can trivially generate IDs
unique to them. The sender can at best use UUIDs to reduce the chances
of collision.

Second, the conversation ID should be a (surprise!) http URI. It should
point to a conversation resource. Obviously if the conversation is
necessary to the successful completion of the discussion then it is an
important resource and deserves a URI. This isn't just theoretically
clean it is extremely important in practice as will become clear in a

Let's think about reliability.

What happens if the conversation-constructing message is lost? That's
okay. The client can just send it again.

What happens if the conversation-constructing response is lost? That's
okay. The client can just set up a new conversation resource and the
server can dispose of the unused one after a timeout.

Now both partners are in the "conversing" state. But the big difference
between the original proposal and the REST proposal is that the REST
proposal makes this state explicit in terms of universally addressable

According to the original proposal, callbacks refer to the conversation
ID. In my proposal, callbacks would also refer to the conversation
resource. But the conversation resource would be a real data-containing
resource. For instance in an instant-messaging application, the
conversation resource would list which users are involved with the
discussion. In an order negotiation application, the conversation
resource could point to the good being bought or sold. Note that the
server by definition has access to this information so it is just a case
of giving the information a URI so that it may be looked up at runtime
by the client or third parties.

This is important for a variety of reasons. First, it means that clients
can be stateless and thus simpler. It means that the client-end of a
conversation can migrate from one machine to another merely by passing
the conversation ID URI (and authentication information). It means that
an (authorized) third-party application like a logger, auditor or
security filter can apprise itself of the full state of the conversation
just by following the URI in the message. 

A conversation resource is not in any way tied to any particular
nodes/endpoints. Once it is set up, dozens or hundreds of participants
can be involved without any major architectural shift. The third,
fourth, etc. participants are brought in merely by forwarding them the
URI. There are no hard-coded roles of "client" and "server" after the
conversation is set up. There is "the server maintaining the
conversation" and "everybody else".

Also, stateless presentation tools like XSLT stylesheets can extract
information for rendering the transmitted message. Assertions can be
made about conversation resources using RDF. An HTML representation of
resources can be used for technical support and debugging.

Most important: if the client or other participant misses a message,
gets state corrupted or otherwise gets confused about the state of the
conversation, it can refresh itself with a simple GET. That's a scalable
approach to reliability. Under the original protocol, there is no way
for a confused client that has missed a message to check whether the
conversation is still ongoing and thus it should expect more messages.
For instance if the client is momentarily offline, there is no way for
it to check whether the server timed-out in the meantime.

The original proposal says:

"The ContinueHeader
       MUST be sent on any messages to operations that are marked in the
       WSDL as requesting a ContinueHeader."

I feel that this is too large grained of a constraint. In some cases,
conversations will need to nest. For instance there is the conversation
that sets up a shopper/seller relationship and then within that there
are conversations on the price of individual items. In the REST model
these would be just different kinds of conversation resources. Some
operations would expect a reference to a "shopping conversation" and
some operations would expect a reference to a "product price
negotiation" conversation. Of course each resource would have a link to
the other so that it is possible to easily go from one to another.

The original proposal says that the conversation is ended in an
unspecified manner. I do not understand why it would specify some things
and leave that unspecified. Therefore I would say rather that the
conversation is ended when either party DELETEs the conversation
resource. There should be some standardized way for the server to
indicate that it is doing so to a callback-capable client. Alternately,
conversation resources could be immortal (for archival purposes) but
could have a flag that says whether they are ongoing or historical.

I hope this demonstrates that a REST approach is not at all at odds with
a "named conversation" approach but a REST approach would say:

 1. Conversations should be named as everything else on the Web is
named, with URIs.

 2. Conversations should be inspectable and introspectable as everything
else on the Web is, through HTTP GET.

 3. Any authorized party (especially confused clients) should be able to
bring itself up to a full understanding of the state of the conversation
by looking at the conversation URI (or things linked to the conversation

 4. Conversations will almost always have important associated data (the
stuff being talked about) and the resource storing that information can
easily serve as the conversation resource.
Come discuss XML and REST web services at:
  Open Source Conference: July 22-26, 2002, conferences.oreillynet.com
  Extreme Markup: Aug 4-9, 2002,  www.extrememarkup.com/extreme/
Received on Wednesday, 17 July 2002 22:06:59 GMT

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