W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > www-ws-arch@w3.org > July 2002

RE: Late binding

From: Jeff Mischkinsky <jeff.mischkinsky@oracle.com>
Date: Mon, 01 Jul 2002 08:39:31 -0700
Message-Id: <>
To: "Newcomer, Eric" <Eric.Newcomer@iona.com>, <bytecode@Phreaker.net>, "Mark Baker" <distobj@acm.org>
Cc: <www-ws-arch@w3.org>

At 12:06 PM 6/30/02, Newcomer, Eric wrote:

>Part of the trouble we're having here is that we are debating between what 
>exists today in SOAP, and what Mark would propose, instead.
>Mark has been arguing against SOAP for more than two years, as I recall, 
>and yet the spec has gone ahead anyway.  I point this out because we need 
>to take into account what exists today as much, if not more, than we need 
>to think about what should exist.
>To quote my colleague Oisin Hurley: in theory, practice and theory are the 
>same, but in practice they are not.  Let's not get caught up too much in 
>Fundamentally I also think we are having difficulty arguing in the 
>abstract about the best use of Web architecture.  I don't think anyone 
>will dispute that current Web architecture is working well for the 
>browser-based Web.  However, I think that what we may need to focus on is 
>how Web services will use the Web differently, and thus determine the 
>extent to which current Web architecture applies.
>In other words, just because Web architecture works well for what it's 
>used for today, doesn't mean it will work well for Web services.  Let's 
>please focus on what exists today with repect to Web services (I mean can 
>we all please at least agree to confine the debate to what's already in 
>widespread use and how it might best evolve) and focus on the use cases 
>for Web services (and debate how, if at all, principles of Web 
>architecture as articulated by REST might apply to those use cases).
>-----Original Message-----
>From: Sam [mailto:bytecode@Phreaker.net]
>Sent: Saturday, June 29, 2002 10:42 PM
>To: Mark Baker
>Cc: www-ws-arch@w3.org
>Subject: Re: Late binding
> > SOAP will only help you do that if you know what method to use.
>This is based on information derived from WSDL. In the current state
>of the universe, business parters would have to negotiate business
>contracts seperately (Eg like an SLA).. and I look at the WSDL as
>an artifact of that contract.
>So yes, there is "some prior information".
>The whole scenario of dynamic discovery and usage of services
>working transparently together on the fly without any prior
>knowledge or anything, is, in my opinion, quite improbabilistic.
>The number of variables in that equation increases exponentially
>everyday :)
>Mark Baker wrote:
> >
> > I'll take one last stab at this.  I've explained this several different
> > ways, but I guess I haven't found a suitable way to convince anybody
> > here.  That's quite unfortunate, because this is very important.
> >
> > On Fri, Jun 28, 2002 at 11:23:00PM -0400, Sam wrote:
> > > Based on the WSDL I know what the input and output for the portType
> > > is.
> > >
> > > SOAP will help me send the input information across the wire and
> > > get the output information for that service.
> >
> > SOAP will only help you do that if you know what method to use.
> >
> > I liken the way in which the typical use of Web services work to a
> > guessing game.  They basically say, "pick a number, any number, and if
> > it's the one I'm thinking of, I'll give you something in return".  In
> > other words, unless you have prior information about what the number is,
> > you won't get anything except "sorry, pick another number".
> >
> > The Web, on the other hand, assigns the number 1 to the "give you
> > something" operation, and everybody knows that, so there's no question
> > what number you'd say when you want something.  This makes it very easy
> > for two parties that have never met to exchange information, which is
> > pretty important on the Internet.
> >
> > MB
> > --
> > Mark Baker, CTO, Idokorro Mobile (formerly Planetfred)
> > Ottawa, Ontario, CANADA.               distobj@acm.org
> > http://www.markbaker.ca        http://www.idokorro.com

Jeff Mischkinsky                    jeff.mischkinsky@oracle.com
Consulting Member Technical Staff   +1(650)506-1975 (voice)
Oracle Corporation                  +1(650)506-7225 (fax)
400 Oracle Parkway, M/S 4OP960
Redwood Shores, CA 94065 USA
Received on Monday, 1 July 2002 12:05:53 UTC

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