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RE: EDI and Use Cases

From: Cutler, Roger (RogerCutler) <RogerCutler@chevrontexaco.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Apr 2002 15:57:54 -0800
Message-ID: <3B286631A9CFD1118D0700805F6F9F5A09D09D5B@hou281-msx1.chevron.com>
To: "'Vadhri, Srinivas'" <Srinivas.Vadhri@commerceone.com>, "Cutler, Roger (RogerCutler)" <RogerCutler@chevrontexaco.com>, "'Hugo Haas'" <hugo@w3.org>, www-ws-arch@w3.org
I think that there are potential answers to these questions that are pretty
easy to derive from "common practice" with VAN's.  And I imagine that
possibly these answers might then morph some in the WS environment.

But aren't these questions getting into the weeds a bit at this point?  Not
that I object whatsoever to them ... perhaps I am just saying that I am
about to take a plane to Belize to sail a Catamaran for a week ... drop
anchor in an isolated bay, make a gin and tonic, watch the sun set and cook
a good dinner ... and when I get back (possibly if you remind me -- I'm
starting to do the memory dump at this very moment) I'd be glad to talk to
our EDI guys and see what their practices suggest might be effective here.
Actually, these are REALLY good questions ... I'm just having trouble
focussing on them.

Sorry ... I guess I'm in transition mode here.  Have fun at the F2F.  I'll
miss you all ... And I'll be thinking of you in the tropics ... NOT!!

-----Original Message-----
From: Vadhri, Srinivas [mailto:Srinivas.Vadhri@commerceone.com] 
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 5:36 PM
To: 'Cutler, Roger (RogerCutler)'; 'Hugo Haas'; www-ws-arch@w3.org
Subject: RE: EDI and Use Cases


the 'To', 'From' - themselves could be URIs, the 'Control Number' in a
message could be a GUID? What, for eg., a message needs to refer to an
earlier message - a PurchaseOrder Response based on a Purchase Order - a
reference Control Number? How does one distinguish whether a message has
been sent multiple times - should the Control number (GUID) gets generated
(unique) each time?

Srinivas

-----Original Message-----
From: Cutler, Roger (RogerCutler) [mailto:RogerCutler@chevrontexaco.com]
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 12:14 PM
To: 'Hugo Haas'; www-ws-arch@w3.org
Subject: RE: EDI and Use Cases


Does identifying messages with a URI satisfy the sequencing requirement?
Seems to me that it might not.  Also seems to me that using URI's does not
help with the queries noted below.

However, one might object that I am asking for intelligent keys, which in
some cirles is sort of a no-no.  So perhaps a URI is a reasonable unique ID
and the "To", "From" "Control Number" thing is at a lower level?  That is,
if one were talking relational databases the URI would be the key but
"To/From/ControlNumber" might have constraints of required and unique?  Does
this make sense in this context?

-----Original Message-----
From: Hugo Haas [mailto:hugo@w3.org] 
Sent: Thursday, April 04, 2002 1:52 PM
To: www-ws-arch@w3.org
Subject: Re: EDI and Use Cases


* Cutler, Roger (RogerCutler) <RogerCutler@chevrontexaco.com> [2002-04-02
13:46-0600] [..]
> I am, however, a bit concerned about two other issues that appear to
> be important to EDI.  The first may be trivial, the second may be 
> impossible -- but they are both things that seem to be heavy hitters 
> in terms of what is expected from a VAN so let me get them on the 
> table for comment:
> 
> 1 - Unique message ID and sequencing.  It is very important to be able
> to identify a message uniquely, and this identification is generally 
> contained in the enveloping mechanism.  (There are usually other ID's 
> in the body, but this is clearly beyond the scope of the 
> infrastructure).  The unique identification is commonly done by the 
> combination of "To", "From" and a sequential "control number".  This 
> facilitates queries like, "Did you get message N sent from A to B?"  
> "What messages of those sent from A to B are between N and M?" and so 
> on.  In addition, the datetime of message envelope creation (not 
> necessarily the datetime sent) is also important.  As in "What 
> messages were created on Tuesday by A?"  As I understand it, the 
> sequencing is logical, not a guarantee of order of delivery.  However, 
> in some cases (as I understand it, this is unusual) the sequencing may 
> be required.  That is, control number 21 is not a valid message unless 
> (or until?) 20 has been received.

Identifying messages is a good idea. On the Web, the natural way to do this
is to use URIs.

* Damodaran, Suresh <Suresh_Damodaran@stercomm.com> [2002-04-04 10:00-0600]
[..]
> ebXML Messaging  2.0 specification (the latest version under review)
> requires a GUID (globally unique id) for all messages.
> 
> 3.1.6.1 MessageId Element
> The REQUIRED element MessageId is a globally unique identifier for
> each message conforming to MessageId [RFC2822].

In ebXML Messaging  2.0, the message identifier is not expressed as a URI
AFAICT, but could be with the mid scheme[1].

Regards,

Hugo

  1. http://www.ics.uci.edu/pub/ietf/uri/rfc2111.txt
-- 
Hugo Haas - W3C
mailto:hugo@w3.org - http://www.w3.org/People/Hugo/ - tel:+1-617-452-2092
Received on Thursday, 4 April 2002 18:58:17 GMT

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