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23 May WebOnt teleconference minutes for review

From: Peter F. Patel-Schneider <pfps@research.bell-labs.com>
Date: Thu, 23 May 2002 14:05:01 -0400
To: www-webont-wg@w3.org
Message-Id: <20020523140501M.pfps@research.bell-labs.com>
	Web Ontology Working Group
	Minutes for Webont 23 May Teleconference

Log:    http://ilrt.org/discovery/chatlogs/2002-05-23.txt
Chair:  Jim Hendler
Scribe: Peter F. Patel-Schneider

1) Join call/attendance/admin (10 min)

Present, Absent, Regrets, Excused

A    1.  ALT  James Barnette, Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA)
A    2. Jonathan Borden, Jonathan@openhealth.org (Invited Expert; intro)
A    3. ALT Frederik Brysse, Ivis Group, Limited Frederik.Brysse@ivisgroup.com (intro)
P    4. Stephen Buswell, Stilo Technology StephenB@stilo.com, sb@stilo.com (intro)
A    5. Jeremy Carroll, Hewlett Packard Company jjc@hplb.hpl.hp.com, jeremy_carroll@hp.com (intro)
P    6. Dan Connolly, W3C Team contact connolly@w3.org
A    7. Jonathan Dale, Fujitsu Limited jdale@fla.fujitsu.com (intro)
P    8. Jos De Roo, Agfa-Gevaert N. V. jos.deroo.jd@belgium.agfa.com (intro)
P    9. ALT  D.C. De Roure, University of Southampton dder@ecs.soton.ac.uk (intro)
P   10. Mike Dean mdean@bbn.com (invited expert; intro)
P   11. Stefan Decker, Stanford stefan@db.stanford.edu (intro)
A   12. Larry Eshelman, Philips Electronics N.V. larry.eshelman@philips.com (intro)
A   13. Dieter Fensel, Ibrow, dieter@cs.vu.nl (intro)
R   14. Tim Finin, University of Maryland MIND Laboratory finin@cs.umbc.edu (intro)
P   15. Nicholas Gibbins, University of Southampton nmg@ecs.soton.ac.uk (intro)
P   16. Pat Hayes, phayes@ai.uwf.edu (invited expert) (intro)
P   17. Jeff Heflin heflin@cse.lehigh.edu (invited expert; intro)
R   18. Ziv Hellman, <ziv@unicorn.com>, Unicorn Solutions Inc. (intro)
P   19. James Hendler, Maryland Information and Network Dynamics Lab at the University of Maryland hendler@cs.umd.edu (Co-Chair; intro)
A   20. Bernard Horan bernard.horan@sun.com Sun Microsystems, Inc.
P   21. Ian Horrocks, Network Inference horrocks@cs.man.ac.uk (intro)
A   22. Francesco Iannuzzelli, <francesco.iannuzzelli@ivisgroup.com>, Ivis Group Limited (intro)
A   23. ALT Mario Jeckle, Daimler Chrysler Research and Technology mario.jeckle@daimlerchrysler.com (intro)
R   24. Ruediger Klein, Daimler Chrysler Research and Technology ruediger.klein@daimlerchrysler.com (intro)
A   25. ALT  Natasha Kravtsova, Philips Electronic N.V. natasha.kravtsova@philips.com (intro)
A   26. Ora Lassila, Nokia daml@lassila.org, ora.lassila@nokia.com (intro)
A   27. ALT Alexander Maedche, <maedche@fzi.de>, Forschungszentrum Informatik (FZI)
P   28. Deborah McGuinness, Stanford dlm@ksl.stanford.edu (intro)
R   29. Libby Miller, University of Bristol libby.miller@bristol.ac.uk (intro)
A   30. Enrico Motta, Ibrow e.motta@open.ac.uk (intro)
P   31. Leo Obrst, MITRE lobrst@mitre.org (intro)
A   32. Laurent Olivry EDF (Electricite De France) Laurent.Olivry@edf.fr
P   33. Peter Patel-Schneider, Lucent Technologies pfps@research.bell-labs.com (intro)
A   34. Martin Pike, Stilo Technology mp@stilo.com (intro)
A   35. Marwan Sabbouh, MITRE ms@mitre.org (intro)
P   36. Guus Schreiber, Ibrow schreiber@swi.psy.uva.nl (Co-Chair;intro)
E   37. Shimizu Noboru, Interoperability Technology Association for Information Processing, Japan (INTAP)
A   38. ALT  Michael Sintek, German Research Center for Artificial Intelligence (DFKI) Gmbh sintek@dfki.uni-kl.de (intro)
P   39. Michael Smith, Electronic Data System (EDS) michael.smith@eds.com (intro)
A   40. Ned Smith, Intel ned.smith@intel.com (intro)
P   41. John Stanton, Defense Information Systems Agency (DISA) StantonJ@ncr.disa.mil stantonj@ncr.disa.mil (intro)
P   42. Lynn Andrea Stein, lynn.stein@olin.edu (invited expert; intro)
A   43. ALT  Patrick Stickler, Nokia patrick.stickler@nokia.com (intro)
A   44. Said Tabet, Nisus, Inc.
P   45. Herman ter Horst, Philips Electronic N.V. herman.ter.horst@philips.com (intro)
R   46. Lynne R. Thompson, Unisys Corporation lynne.thompson@unisys.com (intro)
R   47. David Trastour, Hewlett Packard Company david_trastour@hplb.hpl.hp.com, david_trastour@hp.com (intro)
P   48. Frank van Harmelen, Ibrow Frank.van.Harmelen@cs.vu.nl (intro)
P   49. Raphael Volz, <volz@fzi.de>, Forschungszentrum Informatik (FZI) (intro)
P   50. Evan Wallace, ewallace@cme.nist.gov, National Institute of Standards and technology (intro)
P   51. Christopher Welty, <welty@us.ibm.com>, IBM Corporation
P	Massimo Marchiori


2) ACTION item review
    (chair, 10 min)

ACTION Connolly: to arrange direct CVS access for
appropriate members [Jeremy Carroll, Jos de Roo] of the test focus
area to that repository.

[continues]

ACTION Welty, Hayes, Wallace: each to review UML/OWL stuff continues.
  - Welty and Wallace completed.

[Pat produced something on-line.]
[completed]

ACTION - 5/23 Gibbins - draft a WIWG review of RDFS document

[completed]

ACTION - 5/23 Dan Connolly will set up f2f registration page

[continues, Dan promises to be done presently]

ACTION - chairs - work out how/when we will have telecon call in for f2f

[continues]

ACTION - 5/23 Nick Gibbins to draft a proposed response from WOWG to 
	the RDFS schema document

[completed]

ACTION - 5/23 Deb McGuinness editing"level "1 document for external 
	release (as WD)
[completed, see agenda item 3]
[replacement action, to continue editing]

2a) update (if any) on July f2f. (5 min, Deb M./John D.)

Reminder:  All attendess should make hotel registrations very soon.
Update: The meeting is scheduled for two full days.


3)  Status report on documents (15 minutes)
  Update on "Level 1" document (McGuinness)
  Discussion of Level 2 document (editor needed)
  Update on UML non-normative syntax (Guus)
  Moving D+O as working draft (initial discussion only)
  [Also Jonathan Borden's document.]

3.1) Update on "Level 1" document:

Deborah McGuinness - 
  What is level 1, RDF plus something or OWL minus something?  Sentiment
  was expressed against RDF plus something as then level 1 might end up as
  not being compatible with full OWL.  An intermediate position would be to
  describe level 1 as a superset of a subset of RDF, and make sure that
  this is a subset of full OWL, as well as describing level 1 as a subset
  of full OWL.  (Comments on the DAML joint committee.)   Some WG members
  are not happy with even this intermediate position.
Frank van Harmelen - 
  Worried about compatability.
Jim Hendler -
  Important part is the feature summary.  What is the status of things like
  subClassOf?  Are they RDF?  
Peter Patel-Schneider -
  Worried about whether any classes can be in the domain of
  discourse.  Making subClassOf be light requires that classes be in the
  domain of discourse.
Lynn Stein - 
  Making classes not be in the domain of discourse is a bad idea.
  This should be a separate issue.
Jim Hendler - 
  Who will raise the issue?
  Perhaps just mention that there are open issues with respect to layering.
Frank van Harmelen -
  This would counter the strong statements in the document.
Deborah McGuinness - 
  Changing these statements to something weaker is acceptable.
Guus Schreiber - 
  Add an issue.
Jim Hendler -
  Suggestion: There is a document under preparation.  The next step should
  be a draft document.  
Deborah McGuinness -
  Three separate paths - RDF+, OWL-, both
Jim Hendler -
  Full OWL document is further behind, so level 1 can't be delayed by it.
Ian Horrocks -
  What was the decision?
Jim Hendler -
  Decision was to move ahead with level 1 document.
Dan Connolly -
  Compliance is a strong word.  It needs a careful meaning given to it, or
  changed. 
Deborah McGuinness -
  Change to ``OWL lite'', or equivalent.
Ian Horrocks -
  Worry about two languages, not even in sync.
Jim Hendler -
  Move discussion to email, in response to draft by Deborah McGuinness.
  Deborah has ownership of the issues related to this document (5.2, and
  the new issue on classes as elements of the domain of discourse).
Deborah McGuinness -
  Will be absent for the next two weeks.
Frank van Harmelen -
  Will co-edit.
Pat Hayes -
  Will co-edit.

ACTION Frank van Harmelen, Pat Hayes: 
	coedit level 1 document as draft to WG

3.2) Discussion of Level 2 document (editor needed):

Jim Hendler -
  This document is the one sent out by Peter Patel-Schneider.
Peter Patel-Schneider -
  Update of document from face-to-face with frame layer removed, and more
  frame-like properties.  Lots of minor changes as well.
Dan Connolly -
  Need RDF/XML and n-triples syntax, which this document is not.
Peter Patel-Schneider -
  Agreed.
Jim Hendler -
  What about DAML+OIL document as a WD.
Dan Connolly / Jim Hendler -
  This would give DAML+OIL an approval by the WG.
Jeremey Carroll -
  Are these two documents not the same?
Jim Hendler -
  This document fills a need for a higher-level document that prospective
  users could use.
Frank van Harmelen -
  Worry about surface syntax.
Jim Hendler -
  Surface syntax is rdf triples, so DAML+OIL looks like a good document.
  Decision was to start with DAML+OIL, so DAML+OIL syntax is the starting
  point as well.
Dan Connolly -
  Worried about the document giving a strange view of language.
  Expects that semantics will start with triples.

ACTION Peter Patel-Schneider:
	edit document on OWL Features as draft for WG

ACTION Deborah McGuinness, Ian Horrocks, Frank van Harmelen, Pat Hayes:
	co-edit document

Various -
  Do not make one document of the two, as yet.
Ian Horrocks -
  Worry about lack of coordination.
Jim Hendler -
  Feedback at WWW indicates that the level 1 would have utility.


3.3) Update on UML non-normative syntax (Guus)

Guus Schreiber -
  Comments from various people have been heard.  New version of document
  will come out, with various views incorporated.  
Jim Hendler -
  Still a non-normative appendix.
Guus Schreiber -
  Yes, at least for now.

Jeremy Carroll -
  Wants a non-normative appendix for frame systems.
Jim Hendler -
  Yes, if there is a document produced and an implementation, at the very
  least.

3.4) Dark triples document

Jon Borden -
  Is there something to ask for from RDF Core?
Dan Connolly -
  What are we asking for?
Jon Borden -
  A mechanism to label dark triples, e.g., owl list triples are dark.  Pat
  Hayes has suggested that there be a triple that makes a URI dark.
Dan Connolly -
  Need a solution acceptable to the WG.
Jon Borden -
  What needs to be dark?  Lots or little?
Jim Hendler -
  Is the note done?
Dan Connolly -
  NO!  However, adding the various potential solutions would be OK.
Massimo - 
  Does WebOnt require something from RDF Core in this area?
Jon Borden -
  Yes.
Massimo -
  No, there is an ambiguity.
Jim Hendler -
  Break.
  Edit document, adding potential solutions; discuss at next meeting.
Peter Patel-Schneider -
  Make a change and make a resolution next week.
Jon Borden -
  Those who have changes, please speak up soon, with constructive changes.
Jim Hendler -
  Keep the discussion to one thread.

3.5)  Moving D+O as working draft (initial discussion only)

Jim Hendler -
  There is only a member-submitted note for DAML+OIL.
  Suggestion:  Make a WD from the DAML+OIL note.
  Who will be an editor?
Frank van Harmelen -
  What's the point?  The charter points to DAML+OIL already.
Jim Hendler -
  Simply procedural.  Also there may be some minor changes.
Frank van Harmelen -
  Don't WDs need consensus.
Jim Hendler -
  Not necessarily.
Jeremy Carroll -
  Supports proposal.
Dan Connolly -
  What about technical changes, e.g., name spaces.
Jim Hendler -
  The document is the Reference Description.

ACTION Jim Hendler - find editor for document

4) Issue list clean up (30 min, chair)
  Issues 2.1 - 3.4 were raised via an email from Mike Dean about 
issues in the requirements not covered in DAML+OIL.  We need to go 
through these and for each one:
  i. decide if it is a real issue - if not, remove or close
  ii. decide if the issue is subsumed under one of the later issues
  iii. if a real issue, get someone to write it up more carefully

POSTPONED for next week.


5) OPEN ISSUE 4.8 (Trust and Ontology, Hendler)
  This issue, raised by comment from our public comment list, appears 
to require a lot of work that is beyond the original charter of our 
WG.  I will propose that we change the status of this item to POSTPONED.

Jim Hendler -
  This issue is OPEN.  Jim Hendler is owner.  Will write up proposal to
  officially POSTPONE the issue. 


6) A.O.B.
scribe volunteer for next meeting

Raphael Voltz will scribe for next meeting.
Received on Thursday, 23 May 2002 14:05:10 GMT

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