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Stuart Williams comments in TAG ISSUE-57 (httpRedirections-57)

From: <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>
Date: Tue, 24 Feb 2009 22:33:12 -0500
To: www-tag@w3.org
Cc: Stuart Williams <skw@hp.com>
Message-ID: <OFF3522AB7.D3178B04-ON85257568.001354A3-85257568.00138645@lotus.com>
Stuart Williams was kind enough to share with me his thoughts on the 
history and status of TAG ISSUE-57 (httpRedirections-57).  I'm taking him 
up on his offer to:

> By all means share with that TAG and or www-tag should you 
> think it useful.

by forwarding the attached to the TAG's public list.   Thank you.

Noah

--------------------------------------
Noah Mendelsohn 
IBM Corporation
One Rogers Street
Cambridge, MA 02142
1-617-693-4036
--------------------------------------




----- Forwarded by Noah Mendelsohn/Cambridge/IBM on 02/24/2009 10:31 PM 
-----


"Williams, Stuart (HP Labs, Bristol)" <skw@hp.com>
02/19/2009 12:50 PM
 
        To:     "noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com" <noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com>
        cc:     Jonathan Rees <jar@creativecommons.org>
        Subject:        RE: Agenda for TAG Teleconference of 19 February 
2009


Hello Noah,

>     6. [17]ISSUE-57 (HttpRedirections-57): The use of HTTP Redirection
>           + Background:
>                o Extensive email discussion on www-tag@w3.org: what is
>                  the appropriate means of requesting and returning a
>                  description of a resource as opposed to a
>                  representation of the resource (and to what extent are
>                  we clear on the distinction?)
>                o [18]ACTION-178 (assigned to Jonathan Rees) update
>                  draft of finding on uniform access to metadata
>                o [19]Discussion on last week's teleconference of
>                  [20]ISSUE-36 (siteData-36): Web site metadata
>                  improving on robots.txt, w3c/p3p and favicon etc.
>                o The chair intends to schedule extensive discussion of
>                  issue-57 at the upcoming F2F.
>           + Goals of this session:
>                o Clarify what we're actually doing under the heading of
>                  this issue. There seems to be a lot of multifaceted
>                  discussion, but it's not clear that we yet agree on
>                  what we're trying to achieve.
>                o Detailed technical discussion (optional: we can leave
>                  for F2F if that's better).
>                o Determine next steps, if any.

FWIW here's my take on issue-57, as I won't be on this evenings call. By 
all means share with that TAG and or www-tag should you think it useful.

HttpRedirections-57 arose our of the 'uneasy peace' arising from the TAG 
resolution on httpRange-14 the later subsequent discussions that lead to 
the TAG 'help' in finalising the publication of 
http://www.w3.org/TR/cooluris.

Primarily the question for this issue arose frm the email [1] referenced 
from the issue's page [2]. On several occassions (though I have not 
searched the records) the TAG clarified that it was *not* looking at issue 
57 as opportunity to rescind or withdraw the httpRange-14 resolution. 
More, it was to look for other approaches that might cut-out one of the 
two-round trips otherwise inherent in the use of 303 and/or that were more 
practically available to content publishers given typical access to hosted 
website configuration.

The other matter mentioned in [1] was UI/bookmarking question wrt to the 
URI typically presented to a user in the face of a 303 redirection and the 
potential confusion. I don't believe that we have had any significant 
discussions of this second aspect.

The various discussions around the use/revival of the http Link: header 
are focus squarely on that first topic, ie. of other mechanisms for 
finding descriptions than 303 redirections (not that link headers 
necessrily reduce the number of redirections). I believe that overall 
Jonathan is/was very open to other possible approaches too and has 
catalogued a number of suggested alternatives on a wiki page [3] - though 
link headers in particular is finding some traction.

IIRC Henry gave only qualified approval [4] to a resolution made at our 
May F2F:

                 Henry tries alternate wording

                 Dave likes it better

                 <timbl_> Proposal4a: The TAG recommends the use, for 
example for POWDER and metadata 
                 about fixed resources, and GRDDL transformation links; 
and further standardization of 
                 the HTTP Link: header as described in 
                 
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt

                 <ht> Proposal5: The TAG endorses 
http://tools.ietf.org/id/draft-nottingham-http-link-header-01.txt 
                 and standardization of the HTTP Link: header for use 
cases such as POWDER and metadata about fixed 
                 resources, and GRDDL transformation links

                 Resolved without objection

                 <scribe> ACTION: jonathan to reply publicly to Phil with 
respect to our decision on Link: [recorded in 
http://www.w3.org/2008/05/20-tagmem-irc]

                 <trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-154 - Reply publicly to Phil 
with respect to our decision on Link: [on Jonathan Rees - due 2008-05-27].

                 ACTION-154 resulted in an email from Jonathan [5] which 
was partially preempted by an email from me [6] both the Phil Archer.

The scoping of use is/was of important for Henry's support.

A benefit of the Link: header approach with HTTP is that it applies 
equally to 'information' and 'non-information' resources, so out-of-line 
metadata can be provided/discovered for both. In Jonathan's uses cases 
this is particularly important for resources are for whatever reason 
immuable.


SO... I think that the real focus has and has always been access to 
metadata and finding acceptale alternatives to 303's. In large part the 
link header approach has some reaonable momentum... but of late the site 
metadata question has also arisen. Jonathan has largely been the active 
TAG steward for this issue. Personnally I think that the TAG should 
continue to support the Link header based approach and review link header 
drafts to make sure they don't go off the rails (eg. shifting back to 
representations as opposed to resources as the 'subjects' of link 
relations).

Regards


Stuart
--
[1] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2007Jul/0034
[2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/57
[3] http://esw.w3.org/topic/FindingResourceDescriptions
[4] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2008/05/20-minutes#item06
[5] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jun/0082
[6] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/2008Jun/0079

Hewlett-Packard Limited registered Office: Cain Road, Bracknell, Berks 
RG12 1HN
Registered No: 690597 England

> -----Original Message-----
> From: www-tag-request@w3.org [mailto:www-tag-request@w3.org] 
> On Behalf Of noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com
> Sent: 17 February 2009 23:29
> To: www-tag@w3.org
> Subject: Agenda for TAG Teleconference of 19 February 2009
> 
> A proposed agenda for the TAG teleconference of 16 February 2009 is 
> available at [1,2].  A text copy is also provided at the end of this 
> email.
> 
> Please note that there are only two substantive items for 
> discussion this 
> week, ISSUE-20 (error handling) and ISSUE-57 
> (httpRedirections), and we 
> may or may not decide to actually go into detail on the 
> latter, which will 
> be scheduled for F2F discussion in any case.  So, there is 
> some chance 
> that the call will not go the full 90 minutes.  Please alert 
> me ASAP if 
> you feel there are additional items we should be discussing this week.
> 
> Thank you.
> 
> Noah
> 
> [1] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/02/19-agenda
> [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/tag-weekly
> 
> --------------------------------------
> Noah Mendelsohn 
> IBM Corporation
> One Rogers Street
> Cambridge, MA 02142
> 1-617-693-4036
> --------------------------------------
> 
> 
>    [1]W3C | [2]TAG | Previous: (Telcon) Prev: [3]12th Feb Next: 26
>    February 2009
> 
>       [1] http://www.w3.org/
>       [2] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/
>       [3] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/02/12-minutes
> 
>              Agenda of 19 February 2009 TAG teleconference
> 
>    Nearby: [4]Teleconference details - [5]issues list and [6]Issue
>    Tracker ([7]handling new issues) - [8]www-tag archive - [9]tag
>    archive
>     1. Convene
>           + Chair: Noah, Scribe: Ashok
>           + Roll call -- Regrets: Tim, Henry
>           + Agenda Review - [10]this agenda
>           + Future Regrets:
>           + Next Telcon: Propose 26th Feb 2009; Chair: Noah; Scribe:
>             John
>           + Future scribes: Larry > Henry > Jonathan
>     2. Approval of Minutes from previous telcons
>           + [11]22th Jan 2009: errors in earlier drafts were corrected
>             by Henry.
>           + [12]12th Feb 2009
>     3. F2F Logistics (Brief)
>           + Goals:
>                o Alert group that meeting is < 2 weeks away. 
> Therefore,
>                  significant reading materials due in < 1 weeks.
>                o Give Ashok an opportunity to provide update on local
>                  arrangements (if needed)
>                o Answer any other participant questions
>     4. F2F Content and Agenda Planning (Brief)
>           + Goals:
>                o Remind group that chair needs help preparing a
>                  worthwhile agenda. In particular, the chair solicits
>                  input (responses via email please) regarding:
>                     # Open issues, TAG Finding drafts, etc., 
> that would
>                       merit attention at the F2F.
>                     # Particular proposals for new directions or areas
>                       of emphasis for the TAG.
>                     # The best ways of organizing exploration of those
>                       new directions.
>                     # The best ways of using the F2F to bring incoming
>                       members up to speed on existing work, TAG
>                       customs, etc.
>     5. [13]ISSUE-20 (errorHandling-20): What should specifications say
>        about error handling?
>           + Background:
>                o Per [14]Henry and Larry are to prepare for discussion
>                  next week on the 12th, corrected in 
> [15]email exchange
>                  with Henry and Larry
>                o Note that [16]ACTION-199 (assigned to Henry Thompson)
>                  Follow up on error handling thread (8 Oct)
>           + Goals of this session:
>                o Review discussion to date of issues relating to the
>                  pros and cons of various ways of providing
>                  specifications for error handling for processing of
>                  Web document formats.
>                o Decide whether the TAG has an ongoing interest in
>                  woring in this area, and if so, with what goals.
>                o Determine next steps, if any.
>     6. [17]ISSUE-57 (HttpRedirections-57): The use of HTTP Redirection
>           + Background:
>                o Extensive email discussion on www-tag@w3.org: what is
>                  the appropriate means of requesting and returning a
>                  description of a resource as opposed to a
>                  representation of the resource (and to what 
> extent are
>                  we clear on the distinction?)
>                o [18]ACTION-178 (assigned to Jonathan Rees) update
>                  draft of finding on uniform access to metadata
>                o [19]Discussion on last week's teleconference of
>                  [20]ISSUE-36 (siteData-36): Web site metadata
>                  improving on robots.txt, w3c/p3p and favicon etc.
>                o The chair intends to schedule extensive discussion of
>                  issue-57 at the upcoming F2F.
>           + Goals of this session:
>                o Clarify what we're actually doing under the 
> heading of
>                  this issue. There seems to be a lot of multifaceted
>                  discussion, but it's not clear that we yet agree on
>                  what we're trying to achieve.
>                o Detailed technical discussion (optional: we can leave
>                  for F2F if that's better).
>                o Determine next steps, if any.
>     7. Pending Review Issues: - The following were on agenda for 5 Feb
>        2009 and were not discussed:
>           + Issues whose closure is pending review - see bottom of
>             [21]Tracker Agenda page.
>                o [22]ISSUE-1 w3cMediaType-1 Should W3C WGs 
> define their
>                  own media types? raised 2002-01-09
>                o [23]ISSUE-8 namespaceDocument-8 What should a
>                  "namespace document" look like? raised 
> 2002-01-14  - 1
>                  open action item
>                o [24]ISSUE-35 RDFinXHTML-35 Syntax and semantics for
>                  embedding RDF in XHTML raised 2003-02-06
>                o [25]ISSUE-51 selfDescribingWeb-51 Well known formats
>                  and URI based extensibility. ([26]Finding has been
>                  published.)
>     8. Overdue Action Items:
>           + Overdue action in [27]Tracker
>     9. Any other business
>      _________________________________________________________
> 
>       [4] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/#telcon
>       [5] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/issues
>       [6] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/
>       [7] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2003Jul/0054.
>       [8] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/www-tag/
>       [9] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/
>      [10] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/02/19-agenda
>      [11] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/01/22-minutes
>      [12] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/02/12-tagmem-minutes
>      [13] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/20
>      [14] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/01/29-minutes#item05
>      [15] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/tag/2009Feb/0056.html
>      [16] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/199
>      [17] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/57
>      [18] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/178
>      [19] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/2009/01/22-minutes#item02
>      [20] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/36
>      [21] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/agenda
>      [22] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/1
>      [23] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/8
>      [24] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/35
>      [25] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/issues/51
>      [26] 
> http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/doc/selfDescribingDocuments-2009-02-07.html
>      [27] http://www.w3.org/2001/tag/group/track/actions/overdue
> 
> 
>     Noah Mendelsohn for TAG
>     $Revision: 1.4 $ of $Date: 2009/02/17 23:18:16 $
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> 
Received on Wednesday, 25 February 2009 03:34:06 GMT

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