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Re: [httpRange-14] What is an Information Resource?

From: Pat Hayes <phayes@ihmc.us>
Date: Tue, 18 Dec 2007 02:36:53 -0800
Message-Id: <p06230938c38d51d39f6a@[192.168.1.6]>
To: Mikael Nilsson <mikael@nilsson.name>
Cc: noah_mendelsohn@us.ibm.com, "Sean B. Palmer" <sean@miscoranda.com>, www-tag@w3.org

>On tis, 2007-12-18 at 02:16 -0800, Pat Hayes wrote:
>>  >On tis, 2007-12-18 at 01:58 -0800, Pat Hayes wrote:
>>  >>  There is no such thing, I suggest, as
>>  >>  a webarch:representation of an RDF graph, just as
>>  >>  there is no such thing as one of the number zero
>>  >>  or the fourth moon of Jupiter.
>>  >
>>  >
>>  >If I can't faithfully represent the number 0 using a message, I don't
>>  >know of anything I can faithfully represent.
>>
>>  Which is why I think the 'faithfully represent'
>>  criterion is incorrect. I think it was meant to
>>  capture a case like the HTML case, where what is
>>  transmitted is pretty much an exact copy of the
>>  resource itself, but to be generalized to cases
>>  like scripted HTML, a reduced image, a webcam or
>>  a clock, etc.. ; but that cases like numbers and
>>  RDF graphs are in fact counterexamples which show
>>  that the criterion as stated isn't in fact
>>  adequate to capture the intended intuitions.
>
>I can't for the world see how numbers and RDF graphs can fall into the
>same category.

They are both mathematical abstractions. An RDF 
graph is defined to be a mathematical set: its 
not a data structure or an expression.

>But let's stay with RDF graphs....
>
>FWIW, an HTML page is a set of tags, organized in a tree.

No, an HTML *page* is a series of characters. 
Anything that can be encoded in a byte stream is 
a sequence of characters. It might *describe* 
something abstract, like a tree, but we are here 
talking about what it IS, not what it describes. 
(OK, I'm being pedantic. BUt really, we have to 
be pedantic when trying to get use/mention issues 
clear, otherwise we will descend into muddle.)

>What makes
>that different from an RDF graph?

Similarly with the distinction between an RDF 
graph - a mathematical abstraction - and some 
RDF/XML - a piece of XML, which is a sequence of 
characters conforming to some syntactic 
constraints. If you can write a grammar for it, 
its a sequence of characters.

Pat

>  I
>
>I'd like some of that "intuition" too :-/
>
>/Mikael
>
>>  Certainly a number is *not* something that can be
>>  rationally thought of as being at the end of an
>>  HTTP protocol, or that can have operations
>>  performed on it by a POST.
>
>
>
>>
>>  Pat
>>
>>  >/Mikael
>>  >
>>  >>
>>  >>  Pat
>>  >>
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >/Mikael
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >>   Compare sending a numeral in some text, using some
>>  >>  >>  numerical convention, vs. sending an actual number. Maybe if
>>  >>  >>  'lossless' is the sole criterion, then numbers are IRs also, since
>>  >>  >>  the literal "123"^^xsd:number seems to be an encoding of the number
>>  >>  >>  one hundred and twenty three with perfect fidelity. But I'm betting
>>  >>  >>  that this isn't what was originally intended by the IR idea.
>>  >>  >>
>>  >>  >>  Pat
>>  >>  >>
>>  >>  >>
>>  >>  >--
>>  >>  ><mikael@nilsson.name>
>>  >>  >
>>  >>  >Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>  --
>>  >>  ---------------------------------------------------------------------
>>  >>  IHMC		(850)434 8903 or (650)494 3973   home
>>  >>  40 South Alcaniz St.	(850)202 4416   office
>>  >>  Pensacola			(850)202 4440   fax
>>  >>  FL 32502			(850)291 0667    cell
>>  >>  phayesAT-SIGNihmc.us       http://www.ihmc.us/users/phayes
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >>
>>  >--
>>  ><mikael@nilsson.name>
>>  >
>>  >Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
>>
>>
>--
><mikael@nilsson.name>
>
>Plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose


-- 
---------------------------------------------------------------------
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40 South Alcaniz St.	(850)202 4416   office
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Received on Tuesday, 18 December 2007 10:37:08 GMT

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